by snowbird 193 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
But I equate this discussion to trying to describe "color" to someone who's never had the sense of sight.
I think this is a misleading analogy, because even though a
blind person will never actually experience color, they still
have excellent evidential reasons to believe it exists.
Like how we "believe" in infared light, but some snakes "see" it.
[inkling]
I was (still am) one of those that took the path less traveled.
How exactly are you on the "road less traveled"? I think that being
a believer in a supernatural intelligence that is worth trying to
please puts you well in the majority of all humans that have ever
lived, and trying to please the god of the bible puts you into the
majority of people in this country.
The true minority (at the moment) are those with enough courage to
let go of their celestial teddy bear and except the world as the
messy and mysterious collection of shades of grey it is.
Honest, courageous, and compassionate free thought has always been
the road less traveled.
the only reason those without faith in God try to beat those with faith in God down, is because they have nothing to look forward to, except death. They have no hope. It's the same reason a thug steals from convenience store, they've got nothing, so they take it from others.
This is a absurd analogy. A "thug" steals from a convenience store because
he wants to enjoy or consume something he doesn't want to pay for. An
atheist who is trying to erode someone's faith doesn't want to steal that
persons faith, he just wants them to face what they feel is reality.
A better analogy is someone who "beats down" a child's belief in Santa Claus.
Maybe still a bit cruel, but very different than theft.
[inkling]
I have stayed out of this thread because so many of the atheists on this board have taken the Hitchens method. Basically it is to not debate, but instead to throw vile and disgusting insults at Christians. That's fine. I do not respond to that sort of attack. If an atheist wishes to discuss the existence of God in civilized and gracious manner then I will participate.
Perry, your 63 theses seem to be dead on. I can tell by the vicious and ungracious responses they have garnered. Good job!
Hi EX-JW,
I certainly understand a person not wanting to get "vile and disgusting" insults thrown at them. And Lord knows that I am a coward at heart and generally choose a clinically clean Christian walk. But, most of the atheists here on JWD provide a unique opportunity that isn't really available anywhere else..... at least not as readily available. All a person has to do is to state something about God's goodness and all hell breaks loose...immediately. One recent thread on homosexuality, had posters fantisizing about sodomizing Christians. The mental imagery just lit the atheists on fire... with delight. Violent sodomy rape is about as close to murder as you can get in disrespecting a person. This kind of interchange isn't available anywhere else and is priceless. Moderated boards would never allow this kind of insight into the atheist mind. Never for a moment believe that this vitriol is directed at Christians personally. It is the spectacle of the cross and it's implications that drive them to such insanity. It is the very mercy of God that fuels the hate. Christians have always been persecuted.....not for being judgmental misfits like the JW's are, but for accepting God's mercy, his pardon. The very idea of a pardon implies guilt..... thus imploding the illusion atheists have constructed for themselves and their subjects. I try to keep one thing in mind when I come to JWD. I deserve whatever is thrown at me, whatever vile and disgusting lies and hate I encounter. No, not directly because I didn't do anything wrong to the abusers. Rather, it's because I've broken God's laws. I know what the punishment perscribed in the OT is for each crime. I KNOW WHAT I DESERVE. Knowing what I deserve, and equally importantly, knowing what I have eternally escaped, helps to keep me focused on the fact that whatever I face in connection with Jesus, it is nothing compared to what I truly deserve. The goodness and sweetness of "God Manifest in the Flesh" ( KJV) is worth every possible cost. Thanks for your kind words and God Bless.
I can't help thinking that some Christians just love to think they're being persecuted. I haven't reread this thread, but I've considered it a discussion on a forum involving people with different beliefs and ways of thinking who disagree about some things, not the evil atheist vitriol you seem determined to see. (In fact, the original poster, a Christian, and other theists indulged in some name-calling/judging.)
Talk about a storm in a tea cup.
In fact, the original poster, a Christian, and other theists indulged in some name-calling/judging.)
Talk about a storm in a tea cup.
If you're referring to what I said in my opening post about the gross immorality and hypocrisy that I saw among people who claimed to worship God, let me spell it out a little more.
One of the pastors of a church we used to visit had a family on one side of the woods and another family on the other side. Now try explaining that to a precocious 8-year old who started reading around the age of 3 and knew the biblical commandments and precepts like she knew the back of her hand!
Although the JW's were a bit more circumspect in that regard, the malicious gossip and backbiting, the desire for prominence ("reaching out" and "pioneering"), and their sick idolizing of the WTS turned me completely against organized religion.
I refuse to be part and parcel of a religion that touts its purity above all others while hiding the numerous skeletons in its closet. That is not name-calling or being judgmental; it is standing for what is right.
Sylvia
(In fact, the original poster, a Christian, and other theists indulged in some name-calling/judging.)
Eyes Open,
Moral relativists can justify anything by their own nature and imagined autonomy. Consesquently, they regard ANY moral certitude as "judging" and a personal attack...... because they themselves are at the center of their worldview.
Just for clarification, when a Christian comments on right or wrong, he is not "judging" in the sense that he is somehow better; or isn't guilty of the thing he brings attention to. He/She is simply stating moral truth as related by Jesus.
One recent thread on homosexuality, had posters fantisizing about sodomizing Christians. The mental imagery just lit the atheists on fire... with delight.
Oh right, insulting language and generalised attacks are waaay beneath you aren't they Perry?
Twit.
XJW4EVR
I have stayed out of this thread because so many of the atheists on this board have taken the Hitchens method. Basically it is to not debate, but instead to throw vile and disgusting insults at Christians. That's fine. I do not respond to that sort of attack. If an atheist wishes to discuss the existence of God in civilized and gracious manner then I will participate.
There have been a few harsh exchanges but for the most part the exchange of views has been civil and sensible. Why not just address the posters who are polite?
By the way, just because someone does not accept God as portrayed in the Bible does not automatically make them an Atheist. For example, the original American Indians had faith and believed that everything contained a spirit including the wind. They honoured these forces and believed in an afterlife. Look what the way the Christians who invaded America treated them, calling them savages.
Christians themselves have a very poor record when it comes to tolerating other religions and are not in a position to take the moral high ground.
‘Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.’
trevor
snowbird
If you're referring to what I said in my opening post about the gross immorality and hypocrisy that I saw among people who claimed to worship God, let me spell it out a little more.
When I mentioned judging and name-calling I wasn't referring to your original post - I was referring to the following:
BurnTheShips
Haters coming out of the woodwork....
snowbird
Hi EyesOpen,
Indeed, come they did; the bitter, the cynical, the doubting, the questing, and the true-blue believers.Hi snowbird. I'm curious - which of those names do you judge me as? (Obviously not the last one...)
Not to worry, though. Everyone's eyes are opened at different times.
Sylvia
Perry
Many Christians would rather quench the Spirit as Paul warned the church at Thessalonica about doing (I Thessalonians 5:19). Today Christians have a myriad of ways to choose from in order to quench the Holy Spirit's working in their life. The majority of these ways can be lumped into two different categories. The first way many Christians quench the Spirit is by simply refusing to separate from the world and its lusts. The majority of Christians dress and talk so much like the world that you would not know them to be a Christian outside of them attending a church service on Sunday - though that does not make one a Christian. We need to follow what the Bible says in II Corinthians 6 and separate ourselves from the ways of the heathen.
Hi IP Sec, ....... What an incredibly ignorant and thoughtless remark.
I found out that 'pleasing Jehovah" was a fool's errand.
nvgbk, it is not your logic that damns you, it is your premise.
Although one or two posters seemed to enjoy mocking belief, there are a good few comments from atheists/non-Christians in this thread who specifically state that they are not attacking the person, but challenging a point posted. This is what happens on forums, in line with:
snowbird
I'm not attacking anyone else's stance on this subject unless stating one's opinion can be regarded as an attack. If that is the case, then so be it.
trevor
There have been a few harsh exchanges but for the most part the exchange of views has been civil and sensible. Why not just address the posters who are polite?
Exactly.
Moving on... if someone can't deal with having their beliefs, opinions and reasoning challenged, what are they doing posting them on a forum? It's very sad that people feel they need to play the 'being bullied' card when they are faced with questions and points which they don't want to deal with (and during my quick scan of the thread I saw plenty of references to such by those who had taken the time to post their honest responses to snowbird's statements).
Christians: your beliefs are not under siege because the world and his dog are opposed to your God and bent on being evil - they are being challenged because more and more people view them as unfounded.
snowbird
I refuse to be part and parcel of a religion that touts its purity above all others while hiding the numerous skeletons in its closet. That is not name-calling or being judgmental; it is standing for what is right.
Quite right, too. And I feel similarly about all of Christianity, including your version.
Perry
Moral relativists can justify anything by their own nature and imagined autonomy. Consesquently, they regard ANY moral certitude as "judging" and a personal attack...... because they themselves are at the center of their worldview.
Just for clarification, when a Christian comments on right or wrong, he is not "judging" in the sense that he is somehow better; or isn't guilty of the thing he brings attention to. He/She is simply stating moral truth as related by Jesus.
Based on what we have written about Jesus in the bible, if he came back to earth today (saying, for arguments sake, that he's real) I imagine he would have a few things to say to you about your condescending view of those "in the world". Looking down your nose at others is one of the things that JW's have to do to enforce their world-view and belief system - it's not actually very Christian.
Also bear in mind that many of those without the beliefs you hold are very interested in morals and living good lives. They just don't need someone looking over their shoulder to be so.
So in short, here's what I'm trying to say: believe what you think is right. If you post your beliefs here, don't be surprised when people disagree.
Another reason that I personally worship the God of the bible is his candidness and clear path to success. Just before writing Gods' estimation of fallen man he had him who penned those words admit this in Romans 3:
9 What then ? are we better than they? No , in no wise : for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles , that they are all under sin ;
10 As it is written , There is none righteous , no, not one :
Christians point out God's morals, blessings and judgments but live convicted lives acutely aware of their own falleness as opposed to a denial thereof like other worldviews.
When a person has been born again, washed in the blood, and lives under the conviction of sin, he has something that we didn't have as Jehovah's Witnesses. God's Spirit inside.... God's very "DNA". This really is where the rubber meets the road for the Christian. Whereas the unbeliever is a slave to sin, (and left to justify his own existence through illusion), the Christian is no longer under sin's dominion. He now has a choice to follow his spirit or not.
Christ makes it clear that just labeling oneself something doesn't make it true:
Romans 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh , but in the Spirit , if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you . Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ , he is none of his .
So, for the born again Christian, the challenge for godliness is the opposite for the Jehavah's Witness. Whereas before our plight was to run faster, jump higher, and get through more hoops; in Christ our plight is to let go, surrender, crucify. Why? Because the Spirit of Christ is already inside. The flesh simply needs to stop running the show and allow leadership for what is already there. Goodness doesn't need to be manufactured...just set loose. This is a lifelong process where God proves the superiority of living by the spirit as opposed to living by the flesh. This proof is presented in an experiential dynamic way for the believer, in a tender way..... between father and son.
So, although God get's all the credit for all my good things that I now experience in Christ, he did leave a little something for us to do... the struggle with the flesh. This work is not a work of "doing good" however.
Christ did all the heavy lifting and continues to do so, yet, we are his co-workers in that we crucify our flesh (like he did in a much bigger way) and share God's offer of salavation through Jesus.
It's kinda like when I'm working on my big hydraulic mower. My three year old likes to hold some of the tools and "help".
Our God is awesome....he is our daddy.
