by snowbird 193 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
After what MOST on this forum have experienced at the hands of this so called "god's" believers and supporters of the bible ... supposed documentation of the horrors wrought upon this so called "god's" same creation ...
All humanity suffers and dies. No one escapes this situation.
The God of the Bible said it will go on until He reverses it.
Who told the truth?
Sylvia
actually, the men who wrote (as in made up) the bible said that about their made up god.
Trevor,
Wrong premises leading you to a false conclusion.
And yet Jesus said to his father 'Let this cup pass but not as I will but as you will.' He tried to please his father.
Wrong. Jesus pleased his father..... he didn't merely try to. How do I know? God said so himself at his baptism.... "in whom I am well pleased". Jesus was perfect, he was "God manifest in the flesh", of the essence of, and led by the Spirit of God.
Unfortunately, God has a rather different and dimmer view of man than he did of his only begotten Son:
Romans 3
9 What then ? are we better than they? No , in no wise : for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles , that they are all under sin ;
10 As it is written ° , There is none righteous , no, not one :
11 There is none that understandeth , there is none that seeketh after God .
12 They are all gone out of the way , they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good , no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre ; with their tongues they have used deceit ; the poison of asps is under their lips :14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness :15 Their feet are swift to shed blood :16 Destruction and misery are in their ways :
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith , it saith to them who are under the law : that every mouth may be stopped , and all the world may become guilty before God .
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight : for by the law is the knowledge of sin .
I think God is pretty clear here that if you try to justify yourself by "pleasing" him that you're just wasting your time, even though it will provide for you an illusion of righteousness. Remember that warm and fuzzy feeling you had after field service? It was just your vanity, that's all.
Before him Abraham, the first man of faith, tried to please Jehovah and was counted righteous.
Wrong again! God repeats himself three times so that we can be absolutely certain regarding the basis of escaping hell:
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? ° Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness . | |
Abraham didn't try to please God....he took the easy route. He believed God.
You appear to still be indoctrinated with the WT view. Remember those talks and themes like "Are You Pleasing to Jehovah"?. or "Gaining God's approval"? All deception.
So, why does your view and the WT deception work so well with people? The reason is that it appeals to our vanity. We'd like to be able to say, "we did something for God and in all reasonableness, perhaps he'll do something nice for us". That's nonsense... even though it makes us feel warm and fuzzy. Remember coming home from field service feeling like you did something nice for God? But, why is our vanity so strong?
The divine curse upon man is found in Romans 8: 20 Mankind was subjected to VANITY - KJV. Man can only see himself unless the Spirit of God is leading him. But of course how could you know this by reading anything other than a KJV?
For the creation was subjected to futility - NKJV et al.
Previously, the NKJV, NWT et al. would have us believe in Matthew 7: 14 that the path to life is "difficult"; now it has mankind being subjected to futility. The message is clear: Salvation is too difficult.... in fact it is futile. The truth is mankinds' vanity is futile....not his plight.
At no time was mankind subjected to futility because God spoke the first prophecy of hope in Gen. 3: 15 before pronouncing judgement and a curse upon mankind and the earth. Man always had reason for hope and faith.
Of course, the NKJV et al. again is in perfect agreement with the JW bible:
For the creation was subjected to futility - NWT
The NKJV and NWT et al. is predictably also in perfect harmony with the demonic inspired Johannes Greber Translation: "The material creation was made subject to destruction ".
I was raised in a demonic "bible" cult. From infancy I was taught the false words of God through the agency of the Devil's sick word games. Here's another demonic teaching I was taught. The modern versions change "belief" into "obedience", obscuring the initial duty of fallen man of how to get out of his predictament.
Romans 11 :- For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief : 31 Even so have these also now not believed , that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief , that he might have mercy upon all. - KJV
Compare:
For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience , 31 even so these also have now been disobedient , that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience , that He might have mercy on all. - NKJV
For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience , 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience , that he might show all of them mercy. - NWT
And of course...again the openly demon inspired "translation" of Johannes Greber changes belief and unbelief into obedience and disobedience, as do the other modern translations.
See also the NKJV, NWT et al. for Hebrews 4:
6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience (instead of unbelief as in the KJV)
11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience . (instead of unbelief as in the KJV)
This is pure Satanic propaganda in the modern versions. I cannot always be obedient, but I can believe in the Blood Covenant Jesus offers me, and sealed with his own blood, and guaranteed by his ressurection, and placed the Spirit within me as a deposit of things to come.
There are many other scriptures as well in the modern versions that changes belief into obedience. The truth is that we are saved by our belief in the Son of God not by our obedience.... else why would we need a Savior?
The devil would have us believe that without obedience, you can't be saved. The truth is that obedience follows belief, not the other way around like the cults teach. I believe that this particular scriptural perversion can cause insanity (at least a serious case of cognitive dissonance) among cult members because they know deep down that they can't be obedient, yet they keep trying to not sin so that they can get life.
What the devil has done here to his unwitting false bible reading subjects, is to essentially put them in a round room and then have "God" tell them that they must go sit in the corner to be saved! I've been all through the devils' insane nonsense from infancy and I get to watch all my loved ones mindlessly walk in the "biblical" circles the devil has ordained.
Lu 8:12 -
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Ac 15:11 -
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved , even as they.
Ac 16:31 -
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved , and thy house.
Ro 10:9 -
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved .
Presumably you have found a way of interpreting away the obvious conclusion that these men were fools?
It is all right there in the King James Version. I just read it. It is very plain. But I reccommend doing your research before choosing which "bible" to read, so does Jesus in his warning here:
Mark 12: 38 And he said unto them in his doctrine , "Beware of the scribes"
Luke 20: 46 "Beware of the scribes"
I do not believe doctrinal truth can be found in the modern "bible" versions.
Posted by Snowbird
You can pick what you want and discard the rest - as I did with the article on confirmation bias.Just wanted to say thats one of the funniest things I've read in ages. Thanks for a good laugh.
cheers
pak
Oh my - I was so busy thinking about the topic that I missed that. I guess that sums up the issue quite nicely.
"confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoids information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs."
Snowbird
You certainly opened a can of worms!!!
As you can tell by my name, I am still unsure what to believe. I too grew up loving Bible stories. I was raised a Southern Baptist until I became a JW at twenty.
I and my husband and daughter have been "out" now three years.
I see so much beauty in the earth-to whom do we attribute it if not to God? Also, many kindnesses have come my way after I left the dubs, and I feel that maybe God does love my family still.
I try to pray now and then.......I say to you keep your faith. It is yours.
I don't know why some try vehemently to destroy it, especially calling you names that imply that you are just gullible or naive.
We all really should be trying to bolster one another up after the WTS beat us down, not sneering at the convictions that we hold dear.
Please, everyone, don't start in on me now. I really don't know one way or another anymore, so I have no strength to argue, but as I just lost my mother in death last month, I hope that there is such a place as heaven, and I hope that she is there with her parents. She suffered with illness so much in this life, and did not deserve to. She had a faith in God, and I hope she is there with him.
I am in admiration of your certainty of belief, snowbird.
Quandry, the only reason those without faith in God try to beat those with faith in God down, is because they have nothing to look forward to, except death. They have no hope. It's the same reason a thug steals from convenience store, they've got nothing, so they take it from others. Robbing you of your your faith makes them feel justified, better. As in, "You're not getting something better than me, because I took it from you."
Just remember, the scriptures warned in advance of these kinds of people. When you get confused, just look around you, evidence of Jehovah is all around you.
Perry says:I think God is pretty clear here that if you try to justify yourself by "pleasing" him that you're just wasting your time, even though it will provide for you an illusion of righteousness. Remember that warm and fuzzy feeling you had after field service? It was just your vanity, that's all.
But, about Trevor, Perry also says:
Wrong premises leading you to a false conclusion.
Perry, what about your premise? Especially, in view of the scripture you quoted:
Ro 10:9 -
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved .
??Confess with the same mouth as in:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness
By your premise, the weak, sinful, corrupt, would-be pleaser of God is wasting their time, then, CONFESSING with their mouth and BELIEVING. How can a corrupt tree produce righteous fruit?
Your premise and your conclusion (in view of the scripture) cannot be reconciled.
Why?
God cannot have any reasonable, logical or JUSTIFIABLE basis for saving corrupt, bitter, cursing humanity. There is no JUSTICE in God's UNDESERVED kindness or UNMERITED favor. Man doesn't DESERVE it. Man doesn't MERIT it.
You've never been able to make this work, have you?
Premise and conclusion don't match!
We all really should be trying to bolster one another up after the WTS beat us down, not sneering at the convictions that we hold dear.
Hi Quandry. You mention "sneering" -- and it's true that some of that happens on both sides of the believer / non-believer divide, both on this board and in society. In my view, these discussions are best held when each side respects the other, and tries to explain their views clearly, rationally and without emotion which distorts the discussion. But being humans, sometimes emotion and irrational argument can creep in.
(Edited to add -- yesterday I listened to an hour-long radio Christian call-in show where the featured guest was the president of the local atheist society. Yet, the questions and discussion were held in a very respectful way -- although frank. At the end, the atheist invited the 2 Christian hosts back to his radio show for a discussion!)
Please, everyone, don't start in on me now. I really don't know one way or another anymore,
That is so refreshing, to hear someone in this discussion candidly say "I don't know". That is a sign of strength in my view. Those who claim to be cocksure in a matter of something like the existence of a deity, which is neither provable or unprovable, only add heat and not light to any such discussion.
Personally I am atheist, but I too will admit we don't know for sure whether any god exists. Mankind has described and/or created a wide variety of gods over the millenia from which to choose. Certainly not all of these gods are true -- and so it would be reasonable to say there are gods that have been wrongly believed in.
I personally don't see enough evidence to positively affirm in my mind the existence of any gods that people have described. Others look at the evidence and feel it's good enough for them. It's okay, reasonable people can decide differently whether or not to believe. (Personally, I just don't like the "believe or you'll die" philosophy of some of the major religions of the world such as Islam and Christianity.)
so I have no strength to argue, but as I just lost my mother in death last month, I hope that there is such a place as heaven, and I hope that she is there with her parents. She suffered with illness so much in this life, and did not deserve to. She had a faith in God, and I hope she is there with him.
I'm sorry you lost your mother, it's a hard time. We all want eternal life. And I'm not here to try to diminish your hope. Heck, even as a non-believer I admit that I'd rather live eternally and have my loved ones do so than have everything be temporary. But again, we just don't know. It's hard to deal with uncertainty -- and that's why so many people embrace belief, any belief, to get through tough times.
Thanks Terry for replying to Perry.
I would simply like to add that Abraham was prepared to offer his only son to Jehovah to please him. According to the bible - it worked. He did not consider himself on a fool's errand, nor did his God Jehovah. That is if we take all these ancient biblical stories seriuosly.
They can be found in many cultures and many religions but they all add up to a waste of words.
I always enjoy your posts and the reason and logic that you bring to this forum.
It's Saturday nigh here in the UK and I am of out to drink with sinners and tax-payers
trevor
Interesting thoughts posted, and I, too, don't deny the existence of a creator of some kind although I'm sure the bible has nothing directly to do with it if there is one. If people still belive in the bible, that's their choice. The reason I have been posting in this thread is that when someone posts a line of reasoning that I can see is flawed I don't see why that shouldn't be pointed out. This is, after all, a discussion forum. If I post things that are wrong or unsupported, I expect others to help me see that they are so.
And if we end up disagreeing, then that's fine. I hope I haven't been judging or name-calling, but if I've given that impression, sorry.
