Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

by Dogpatch 501 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Poztate

  You two should probably have followed your first instincts and not read the thread, considering how it seemed to hit such an angry, raw nerve. I'm not sure what's going on here, but a bunch of old friends sharing stories from their lives is not exactly a racist, woman hating plot.
  
  S4

  Seeker...I agree with you. This was just a trip down memory lane. I enjoyed it. It is obvious that the scars are not healed yet with Skally and Snowbird and they could not see this thread was not an attack on them or their feelings. I wish them well as they continue to heal from the WT's influence and urge them not to view threads in the meantime that would cause them distress.
• 

  Gamaliel

  I forgot that incident Franz told about Robert Lang.
  
  There is a similar story that my brother Warren let me know about back around 1980. A JW couple who were good friends of Warren's from a local Brooklyn congregation were upset about a judicial incident that affected them. The wife is a registered nurse and helped care for an elderly brother who was about 90, maybe 91. This old brother, born around 1890 had been an active JW perhaps as far back as Russell's colporteur days. He knew the doctrinal history of the JWs and he was beginning to express himself that the class distinctions set up by the Watchtower doctrine on "anointed" vs. "other sheep" was quite artificial.
  
  This man, Percy Harding, was considered to be one of the "144,000", and was promptly disfellowshipped for apostasy. In some ways he was disfellowshipped for thinking it was OK to be honest in front of elders. But one of the elders judging him was the ever-so-sensitive xxxxx xxxxxxx from the Bethel Writing Department.
  
  So Warren's friend's wife (and another sister providing care) were also forbidden from continuing to help this brother, who was beginning to have trouble walking up to second story brownstone apartment. He needed help getting groceries, preparing his food, cleaning, and other types of care. Having been a JW for nearly a century tends to isolate you from any friends and family outside the JWs so he was still fairly dependent on JWs, and it was a bit late in life to go out and make new friends. When Warren told us about this threat to disfellowship any JWs who tried to help him, my wife and I were happy to go over to visit Percy once a week, coming from Queens.
  
  The man was amazingly sharp, and was happy to find someone who could speak to him about JW doctrine within his own context and references. On his own, he already had the outline of all the major things wrong with JW doctrines. And Percy understood where organizational policy in a religion overstepped the bounds of Christianity.
  
  We kept up the visits, and a real friendship grew. Of course, I had it easy. We'd pick up some groceries on the way, then I sat there and discussed doctrine, while my wife helped out with cleaning, kitchen work and the like. But all of us felt upbuilt by the experience, and what a negative "witness" the organization gave of it's supposed "love". The JW organization proved itself to be a conscious-less, cold machine. That couple where the wife -- the nurse -- was threatened with disfellowshipping if she continued to help Percy, were helped out of the JW mind-trap by this same incident. And they are still excellent friends of Warren's. I last saw them visiting Warren in the hospital just a couple months ago.
  
  Ray Franz also made regular contact with Percy and, of course, they understood very well what they each were going through. When Percy died a couple years later, it was not with bitterness against the JWs. Yet, it's hard to imagine just how much of this man's life had just been ripped out from under him. But his last few years were years of mutual encouragement and he enjoyed finally being able to share both his good JW memories, and the memories he previously could share with no one. (These included some very ambivalent feelings towards Rutherford, for example.)
  
  I think I owe Warren some overdue thanks for introducing us to Percy!
  
  Greg
• 

  wschroeder

  Greg says: Betty Botter (aka GS) is my true literary hero. I like to repeat the following to myself (5 times, fast):
  
  Betty Botter bought a bit of bitter butter. But, said Betty Botter, if I use this bitter butter, it will make my batter bitter. So Betty Botter bought a bit of better butter and it made her batter better.
  
  
  
  
  Sam and the savages is still one of my personal faves.
  
  Too much factory air conditioning and UV Glass... I think. Back to the gatherer brother!
  
  
  I will add some comments made earlier about the bindery basketball and softball teams. Actually, they were my 2 favorite sports, and being on the gatherer with some tall black brothers I was in good company for a lunchtime bball game. One of the overseers of the gatherer was Ollie. Intelligent (and he knew it) and a mouth that never quit, which made him irritating, if not obnoxious. We became good friends after a rough start with each other. Before court trashtalk found its way into sports, he had long before invented and perfected it.
  
  Then there were the spanish-speaking brothers on the bindery floors. Their game was softball. Their overseer was a married brother, whose wife's brother was the soon to be infamous Drew Wasko. The overseer was built like a short football player and ran the NY Marathon each year in something like 3 hours.
  
  While I was pretty good at the game of softball there was one brother, built low to the ground, who could pitch the fastest ball I'd ever seen. If you hit the ball, it was quite by accident I think.
  
  All of this activity was usually a daily event at the factory in good weather. There were a couple concrete courts and a concrete ballfield between the factory buildings and the Fort Greene projects a few blocks away. Midwest whitebread soon learned the ways of city sports and quickly noted that there were no heroes sliding into home plate.
  
  It was usually a big deal to skip lunch to play ball, since that was one of the better meals of the day, and then there was no more food until late afternoon. The evening meal was usually a bit boring for many reasons. So everyone had their tupperware which they begged into the hands of a buddy and stuff with goodies from the lunch tables. You were expected to reciprocate the favor at some point.... Bethelites never forget a favor owed.
  
  As we were all monetarily poor at Bethel, the social interaction of Bethelites and shared resources is still a marvel when you think about it. It has to be one of the blessings of youth and survive on nothing.
• 

  Dogpatch

  Love you Skally, don't hide yet. :-))

  I brag more than anyone about these old times. It was the underground, and we were the rebel forces. The evil Federation under Freddy must be stopped!

  http://www.freeminds.org/space.htm

  Hey, I gave up a hot girlfriend, a great job, drugs, booze and fast cars and worked 6 years for $14 a month to help these GB guys out with their big o' ORGANISASHUN but turns out they was jus in it fer themselves. So far be it from me to not let others know how much I love their style!!

  Life is what you make it.Make a difference.

  Randy

  
• 

  Fisherman

  Doctrinal issues and chronology didnt really bother me or affect my faith. People left Bethel I observed because they had rather be doing something else or got angry. Sometimes a bro applied to have a siister come in after marriage and if they were denied, some brothers got angry and letft the org for that. Back in them days some bros postponed the marriage and later reapplied and I know of cases where the sis was later accpeted, but the wts later stopped that because it was not fair to the sister no postpone or call of a marriage.

  Families back home, not cut out for an institutional way of life, or feeling that one did not get the recognition or job, or gettiing angry because of some injustice done.

  In the world, one can fight back and compete somehow or find a short cut or ride or do things the easy way, not in the Bhouse, there, one was at the mercy of those who rule. I dont mean the Christ. I mean people that impose their will or their sense of justice or their way of doing things on you. In Bethel you just had to take it and swallow

  One can put up with things up to a certain point, but when a man gets fed up whether he is right or wrong, that is it, so bros leave bethel, and even the org, because there comes a point when one cannot tolerate something anymore no matter what the cost. And there are things that a person just cannot forgive. I do not mean that one cannot forgive a person who has done wrong, one can but one cannot be able to forgive the wrong that was done without some justice, so people may leave bethel and may levave the org for these reasons That is what I have obeserved and deduced from cases that I have seen.

  It is a waste of time expressing a concern to the wts. They wil do whatever they want and thats that. One cannot express sincere views or feeling to other jws either without risk being reported or being chastized, One has to be a hypocrite and say things that one does not belive or be counselled or ones spirituality being challenged. Is that what Jesus Christ had in mind?

  At least in this forum one can let off some steam and the wts can see how bros REALLY feel.
• 

  Fisherman

  Randy,

  I do not regret going to Bethel. Im glad I was a part of it a that I could contribute something,I did what I believd was the best that I coud do at that time. I remmeber that you were an important bro and your contribution was valued. I do not feel that your work at bethel was a waste of time

  I would never have gone to Bethel or endured what I did for money. I believed that I was doing it for Jehovah at that time. I believe that was your motive too. How we see things now, do not diminish the merits of our gift to God.

  Randy, this website is also a valuable contribution in my opinion to truth and freedom. Without passing judgement on the wts, the forum is helpfull to jws to get a broader view on the way things really are. Also, active jws would not have considred hearing RFs side,and aproaching wts teachings and wts justice from an analytical perspective. Also, without this website inactive jws have no way of knwing whats going on. One can express how one reaaly feels about or how one reaaly views jw policy or teaching. That is not possible in the congregation. Thanks
• 

  biff mcfly

  Tom or Randy,

  Did either of you know Bob Mattson? He was the overseer when i worked in the pressroom in the late 80s? I heard he worked in the pressroom much earlier(1950s maybe?), left Bethel and came back to be the overseer after raising a family in Jersey. Later his son ..mark..returned to work there in the late 80s, but he also had been at Bethel in the early 70s I believe. They were both really nice men and I thought you might have known them from their earlier Bethel years.

  Thanks,

  Jim
• 

  Satanus

  The closest friendships/strongest bonds are made in institutional style life, or high stress environments, like war. It's why, after exiting, many of us have a hard time filling the gaps left by friends that we leave behind. Topics like this one recall the positives of that life. My opinion.
  
  S
• 

  AK - Jeff

  One thing has struck me with interest in regards this thread.

  There seems to be two distinct classes of former Jw's apparent. Those who went. Those who didn't.

  I didn't.

  I guess that I always knew, somewhere in the back of my sub-cognizant mind, that the "The Hub of Theocratic Activity" in Bethel was just a farce. Somehow, thru my 40 some years of Jwism, I never respected that place. I always thought of it as a 'sweat-shop'. I knew I could not ever kiss enough ass to be there. One tour of the place in 1973 made it absolutely clear that I could never go. I went back to see the 'farm' a few years later, and visited my old buddy Marvin Olson Jr. there. He looked like a zombie. He feigned happiness, but it showed through that he was just a cog in a gigantic wheel.

  I'm glad I never went. Though it may have helped me leave a helluva lot sooner perhaps. Thanx gang for sharing these stories. They have reinforced that I made the right decision 35 years ago. Amen.

  Jeff
• 

  Tom Cabeen

  Hey Jim,
  
  You asked if I knew Bob Mattson. Yes. Bob had been at Bethel in the 1950s, in the Pressroom, left to have a family, then returned. He was my assistant during the last few months I was the Pressroom Overseer, and he took over my job as Pressroom Overseer after I left on July 15, 1980. I more or less trained Bob to run the Pressroom, but Bob had been a professional printer, so the only thing I needed to do was acquaint him with the guys and with the procedures I had put in place after Rich Wheelock went to the Factory Committee. I got along very well with Bob. He was easygoing and as you say, a genuine nice guy. But Bob was my dad's age, a different generation. So he and I did not share the same kind of camaraderie I did with the guys that had been through the big changes in the Pressroom and the organization, guys like Randy, Jim Petrie, Dana Primiano and other foremen, most of whom were of my generation. I also know both Bob's boys, as they had both been in the Pressroom. I knew Mark better than Paul.
  
  Tom