by Marilyn 68 Replies latest jw friends
I am agnostic.
Now, for the theory about Ouija boards working via your subconcious mind -- explain how two people could sit there and rattle out sentences backwards? Nope, don't think so. We finally caught on half way through when it spelled Quija backwards. Anyhow, I belive in stuff like this, and I think certain "channels" are good and some are bad.
Well, the subconscious mind can pick up backwards subliminal messaging in music and the written word. Why wouldn't it be able to spell it out on cardboard? But you may be right!! I'm going tomake one at work tonight :)
Target offers testimony that the Ouija board works:
When my husband and I were using it and a teenage neighbor we had just met asked us to ask the board his middle name. Now just how do you figure this is something we knew and our "involuntary movements" spelled it out? His name was Elwood. Neither of us had ever heard the name before but the board spelled it out. It also told us about a murder that would happen the following day. Names and dates. It all happened just as the board said. Yep, no doubt just all our involuntary movements.
I'm just guessing, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this Elwood fellow was in full view of you and your husband as your hands moved over the board and periodically stopped at the letters "E...L...W..."
Many people on this forum are familiar with the story of "Clever Hans," but I will repeat it here, because I believe it explains Target's experiences. The following is lifted from the web page
* http://dogtraining.co.uk/hans.htm
Thus, I think "Elwood" was unwittingly playing the role of Von-Osten, and his subtle body language signalled where you should stop moving your hands.Wilhelm Von-Osten who was a Russian Aristocrat owned a stallion which became famous the world over for its mathematical prowess. Von-Osten prided himself on his abilities as a teacher. He reasoned that animals perform mentally less well than man because they are not educated as thoroughly as human children. In 1888 he had a chance to demonstrate the power of instruction.
Purchasing a horse, he single-mindedly set about teaching it as though it were a human infant in the classroom. By using skittles, an abacus and a blackboard, he schooled the horse in basic arithmetic, rewarding the animal with a bite of carrot when it gave the correct answers to his questions. Two years of valiant perseverance were richly rewarded.The horse (Clever Hans) emerged as an equine genius, eagerly tapping out with his hoof, the solutions to problems
What was more surprising, he invariably gave the right answers. Soon rumours began to spread about the "Wonder-Horse" and many people came to watch it demonstrate talents worthy of a twelve-year-old child. Clever Hans’ reputation even reached America. Some people looked upon it as a hoax or vaudeville act. Von-Osten however, remained unshaken in his belief that he possessed a ‘Thinking-Horse’ On 6th September 1904, a commission of thirteen people visited Von-Osten’s stable yard. In charge was the director of the Berlin Psychological Institute, Professor Carl Stumpf.
He had chosen the members from various backgrounds, on the grounds that, "Not everyone in a multi-talented group could be deceived." It included a Circus trainer, a Zoologist, a Vet and a Politician. For several days Von-Osten put Clever-Hans through his paces. The horse was on good form, providing the right answers without hesitation and receiving well-earned tit-bits of carrot. The dignitaries were frankly amazed and were unable to detect the slightest sign of fraud, or even involuntary cueing on the part of Von-Osten. Perhaps his coaching, modelled on the techniques of primary school teaching, had, after all, registered on the horses mind. A Scientific Investigation followed.
A Scientist called Oskar Pfungst devised a series of tests designed to explore the limits of Clever-Hans’ understanding of arithmetic and language. It was an exemplary study, which eventually destroyed Von-Osten’s reputation. Pfungst confirmed than Hans was indeed very clever, but not in the way his master had believed.
Pfungst first worked on discovering whether the horse could give correct answers if the questioner did not know the solution. Pfungst achieved this by conducting a test in which Von-Osten held up a series of numbered cards, one-at-a-time. Normally Hans would ‘read’ each figure as it was presented, and correctly tap out the number on the card. In this instance, Pfungst asked Von-Osten to look at some of the cards before showing them to the horse, but others he was instructed to hold up without glancing at them himself. When the questioner had no knowledge of the figures he was displaying, Clever-Hans’ performance went badly wrong.
Pfungst drew the inevitable conclusion that Von-Osten was unwittingly supplying the answers to Clever-Hans. The question was, How?
Pfungst fitted the horse with blinkers and got Von-Osten to stand by its flanks, out of the animals view. From this position, the horse was asked to count. Despite the fact that that it could clearly hear its interrogator the horse was flummoxed. If the same commands were given by Von-Osten as he stood in front of the horse, in full view, the correct answers were tapped out. There was little doubt in Pfungst’s mind that the horse was picking up visual clues, not vocal ones.
He switched his attention from Clever-Hans’ behaviour to that of his owner. Further research revealed that Von-Osten was ‘controlling’ the horses counting behaviour by almost imperceptible alterations in his own body posture. During the training period, the horse had learned to paw the ground when Von-Osten’s head inclined slightly forward to get a better view of the hoof. In anticipation of the correct ‘answer’, he unconsciously tended to straighten himself, and that was the cue the horse took to stop. Pfungst found that even a slight elevation of Von-Ostens eye-brows, a subtle flaring of his nostrils, were sufficient to halt the counting.
At the end of his investigation, Pfungst conclusively demonstrated his theory.
Standing in front of the horse and without asking it anything, he made the stallion tap its hoof and stand to attention by slightly nodding and straightening his head! Von-Osten died in 1909, bitter and disillusioned.
Is that how it happened, Target? Was "Elwood" there in full view as you used the Ouija board? If he wasn't in view, then did he speak as your hands moved? If the latter, then perhaps changes in inflection in his speech could have been the signal.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
Seeker, I think the story goes that you have to invite demons into your life. Setting up the carboard occult game is like inviting them.
Of course the thought then follows that demons have better manners than some people - who don't need an invitation to show up!!!
Marilyn
I love the way people get annoyed when their subjective uncollaborated unrepeatable experiences are not accepted as scientific proof of something.
I don't expect anyone to believe anything I can't prove.
I do know however that the only time I did a Ouija board, after I got bored with it doing nothing, I found it was quite easy to steer the glass around, even with four other peoples' hands on it.
If I can dupe four people the first time I do it (it was fun... I told one girl what colour her knickers (panties) were (she'd bent over earlier and her waist band had ridden down and flashed them), and another that he had to go home to Leeds (where he came from), then I think anyone can do it, even subconciously.
And this was funny; "It even stopped moving it when we stopped touching it."
Wow! Demons obey the laws of physics! (sorry Wonderwoman, not being mean, but it was funny).
People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
:::::::::::::And this was funny; "It even stopped moving it when we stopped touching it."
Now that's freaky!! Abaddon, I must admit that I had wondered just how easy it is to move the glass.
Thanx
Marilyn
One time I turned off the TV.....and the tv shows stopped appearing........................................
I never tried the ouija as an adult (yeah when I was a kid messing about), but everyone I've spoken to who have used them has said that they are very very bad and dangerous. A witch I know used one as a child (her mother) and she said that she experienced things that "no child should see".
As a child when I used one, the glass flew off the board of its own account. Then for nights thereafter I would wake up to see a dark man with wierd eyes standing in my bedroom doorway (the landing light would be on so he was like silhouetted). I thought this was me having nightmares or something until recently. I mentioned it in conversation with my sister, who I'd never told before. (She had shared the room with me) She said "yes I had the same nightmare" she described him and it was the same guy.
I think that even a skeptic should be very careful with things they dont understand.
Sirona
I think that even a skeptic should be very careful with things they dont understand.
Fortunately, skeptics tend to understand more than superstitious gullible people and realize that there's not really that much to be afraid of.
--
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit attrocities - Voltaire
Marilyn,
I am not sure what my designation would be in the believer line. My husband and I don't believe in a God that the mainstream religions teach.
A young friend and I (she does believe in God) used the Ouji board it being the first time for me.
I found it very interesting as it did spell out some very wierd things. I definitely don't believe in demons. Someone mentioned the action as being something scientific that hasn't been explained yet. I am in that category of believing. There have just been too many unexplained paranormal occurrences. I have also had quite a few other experiences that I couldn't explain. I am not a highly imaginitive person I know these things weren't something I conjured up. But I can't explain them either.
TW
