Last night....did not go well at all, at least in my opinion. I feel that the sister from her conversations with my wife started on a quite defensive mode....did my best to stay level headed, but I know there were times I was frustrated, and it showed.
The husband and wife were about 40 minutes late, due to traffic, and they were not prepared to discuss Michael/Jesus, and with respect to the doctrine change, he merely provided me a 1995 and 1997 WT article, when he and I spoke on the phone, he said he was going to show me in the bible, he sort of danced around this a lot, but not to my satisfaction.
For a little background on him, he and his wife have been married for 37 years, and he has been pretty much a life long JW, parents became JW when he was two years old.
After he introduced the WT articles, I did ask him if he was disappointed that the change in understanding was made, he said he was not, but of course some were, but we are still far in the last days.....Well I finished with generation by asking if there have been other instances of Generation change and he sort of stumbled and said that there were around 1914, because at one time people thought that is when the end was going to be.....the watchtower articles were just the ones talking about how there is more clarity on the definition of generation...forgot to bring them with me today. He finished on this by stating that there has been no change in 1914.
He was able to use this string of discussion to his full advantage because he went into the Proverbs 4:18 discussion on new light (which I am not at all prepared to talk about) as well as making the point how it is so great that the Jehovah's Witnesses are willing to adjust their doctrines as there is more 'studying' that is done, and how fortunate that we are in this period of enlightenment to have almost 2000 years of information to learn from. The PO said that in order to serve God how he approves, we need to be willing to make changes - sometimes drastic, sometimes subtle. My wife really ate this up and afterwards commented on how she never really thought about it, but it is quite great that they are able to make changes....what would a good answer have been for this??
With respect to generation, he did talk a bit about the parable of the wheat and the chaff, why there were so many year since Jesus prior to the harvest starting (which we are in now), in the doctrine of the JWs, did this start in 1914/1918?
He and his wife also talked about how the Bible is to this day a book that folks need to be using for guidance, how the witnesses have not made changes of what is in the bible to align themselves with the present society, examples he used were women preaching, subjection of women to their husband, homosexuality, and even somehow or other folded in the door to door preaching.
When we were talking about the Bible, somehow or other we got on the topic of translation and I was noting how each bible footnotes slightly different things and I stated my viewpoint that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but there may be issues with man putting the word on paper, well this got quite a reaction from all parties....I don't think any of the three at the table do a careful job of looking over or reviewing anything, my wife really wondered why I was taking the time to look at the scripture referenced by some verses....I find that a quite fascinating aspect of the book the intertwining of the NT and OT.
We talked a bit about the need for a congregation or a group to be saved, he referred to Hebrews 10:23-25 which talks about the benefits of congregations of like faith being good for worship and he talked about how the disciples were responsible for calling people of like faith together. We talked about if the Bible is all that is needed for salvation, and he danced around this, but he feels that it could be and there have been examples of this through history, I believe this is when the conversation started to head south.
Last week with his wife, I had asked about the history of the organization and she said she could get me a proclaimers book, and also I followed up on a conversation I had with another sister my wife had studied with who was to provide me a list of Trinity references. When we finished the above discussion, I asked if he was able to get me the references and the Proclaimers book and neither were provided, but he still is going to try to get me the book. To my surprise he said I may be able to find the references to the Trinity brochure on the internet. With respect to the Trinity brochure, I should not have mentioned the Trinity this, because at this point it became quite confrontational, and somewhat a Trinity bashing, Lutheran bashing session, questioning the use of women clergy, the belief in three Gods, and the sacrament of communion.
At this point the wife of the PO asked what was my purpose of studying, I told her I thought it was prudent to learn as much as I could about the JWs and also this is giving me a cause to go back and learn about my faith. She left it at that, after a few more Trinity jabs....I took the high ground, though not easy.
At that point I knew I had lost it and this was not going to work out for the best. I also asked if the JWs were a spin off of the Christadelphians or the Adventists, he said that they have been around since the time of Chirst, there has always been a small group studying the Bible like it was intended to be studied.
At the end there was one glimmer of light, the PO started talking about how the JWs are preaching the good news throughout the earth, and he talked about China and some of the other harder to reach places. I asked him what the good news is, he read Is 61:1-2 and could not get his bearings on the NT equivalents......this is not the good news preached by Jesus...
All through the time he talked about the benefit of curriculm study...he really would be much more comfortable with the Bible Teach book, I can tell he and she were uncomfortable with the open format, and with him not being prepared, the 'wide open' format was awful for me as well, since I was also totally unprepared.
Afterwards my wife was really pretty agitated and also pretty hyped up on the JWs, she talked about how it is the only truth, why I can not understand it is the truth etc. She asked why I can not just take the time and study the books, I told her I am willing to read the Bible with her, but if I am going to read the books provided by the WTS with her, she needs to be open to other sources of information as well...never got a yes on this, but also never got a no. She did get a little more calm after a while and asked me what other questions I have. I spoke again about 1914 and she really wonders why that is such an important piece of information to me. I told her that it was a very peculiar facet of the JWs and with the television shows that have been on about the end of the world lately, and with this unique teaching, it just draws my attention.
Any thoughts on this, I don't feel good about this at all. Where should I go from here. I think the sister is setting up a separate BS for her and my wife and we may do this 'couples' study or converstion a few more times.
Thanks,
ISOT
Bible study with PO/sister and wife, did not go well......
by insearchoftruth 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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insearchoftruth
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dawg
"My wife really ate this up and afterwards commented on how she never really thought about it, but it is quite great that they are able to make changes....what would a good answer have been for this??"
Well, I guess this main point to this is that anyone can read a book and come to different conclusions about it. That's why there are so many differing Christian religions. But the JWs are the only religion that will boot you for not going along for what these mind changers at the GB tell you is now new light.
They are the only religion where the adherents must accept doctrine or be shunned by their family and friends. -
neverendingjourney
If the Witnesses were wrong...dead wrong...before, but have changed their views due to "new light," then how can they condemn other religions? Maybe they're also being guided by "new light" and will eventually reach "the truth?"
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jgnat
My wife really ate this up and afterwards commented on how she never really thought about it, but it is quite great that they are able to make changes....what would a good answer have been for this??
My tart reply would be that they don't make changes g-d fast enough. They behave like any big corporation, only admitting to their error years after the fact. I might point out that the Catholic Church has apologized for not dealing with the pedophile problem openly. The WTBTS has yet to do the same. They are still in denial. Another example would be AJWRB and their long campaign to get the society to reform their policy on blood. People continue to die because of the leadership's refusal to revist this doctrine. How is this being willing to change? I'd say the rest of Christendom is much more willing to adjust to reality.
An example from their own literature is their "apology" for getting 1975 wrong. They printed this in 1979, four years later. You might show this to your wife, and ask if that sounds like an organization willing to adjust to it's own error?
http://members.aol.com/beyondjw/1975.htm
(Note: I got an interesting google books hit when I went searching for this quote. This looks good. Expecting Armageddon By Jon R. Stone)
At that point I knew I had lost it and this was not going to work out for the best. I also asked if the JWs were a spin off of the Christadelphians or the Adventists, he said that they have been around since the time of Chirst, there has always been a small group studying the Bible like it was intended to be studied.
You know, he's never studied this for himself. Barbara Anderson spoke of an assignment to try and marry first Century Christians with the current Jehovah's Witnesses, and they had to abandon the study. Such a lineage does not exist. He can try going backwards from the Adventists or forward from the first-Century Christians and he isn't going to be able to match them up.
Any thoughts on this, I don't feel good about this at all. Where should I go from here. I think the sister is setting up a separate BS for her and my wife and we may do this 'couples' study or converstion a few more times.
Oh yes, they know they have your wife. The only reason they would continue "studying" with you is to prove to your wife that you are a spiritual hazard. Her agitated response at the end tells me that she is already in heavy cult mode.
I feel bad for you, dude. Can you start a two-pronged attack, not just doctrine, but a prolonged battle for your wife's natural personality? Can you keep reminding her of the things that make her unique and special? You know, the Steve Hassan model. Someone recently posted a video by Steve Hassan, where he gives some examples of how to do that.
After she's calmed down a bit, you might suggest that you are disappointed that they did not use the bible very much. To have a less rambling study next time, why not stick to a single subject. Give them plenty of warning. I suspect they will still ramble, because this couple have never taken a serious look at their own organization. They assume they are right, so will make all sorts of excuses for it.
Also, for the bible study, don't let him stick to his presentation. When he quotes a scripture, have him read the whole chapter, in context. What was the theme, the intent, of the original author? Does it support his use of it? Good catch that he quoted the OT for the "good news".
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blondie
I have not read all your posts, but what is your wife's religious background? Did she belong to a church growing up, did they attend regularly, did she read the bible and understand the bible sources? People who have no background tend to be easy targets. So someone that has been a jw for 37 years can't explain Jesus/archangel without tossing a photocopied article in your lap? Shame on them.
I'm betting they can't and don't understand it themselves (I didn't and it was the first step for my leaving jws)
Blondie
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insearchoftruth
thanks jgnat,
Blondie, have sent you additional information on my wife, but she is a pretty easy target, her parents were JWs and she never really went a long, but she gets interested every once in a while and she does not really know how to do research and to look into things.
I see it in her day to day life, she is looking for the easy solution, and so far that is what the JWs provide to her, this is what you do, this is how you do it and here are your results...and if we change things, you need to change along with us, or else.
It confuses me more that anyone could imagine and it just tears me up, I am upset and frustrated right now, but I need to get my head straight so I don't go in attack mode...I was about to just let her have it last night, laying out the history, the MSNBC article on child abuse, the multiple generation changes, blood, organ donations, stance on education etc, but I held back and I am very glad I did.
I do love the woman a lot, and she is a great person, when she is not in her JW mode. I have told her a couple of times that if the org was like most other faiths and was tolerant, I may not agree with doctrines, but I most likely would not have issues.
One of the questions she asked me last night afterwards was "are you just trying to show where the Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong?"
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Pahpa
This is a good example of the double standard JWs use when comparing religions. Can you imagine the comments about other religions if they had a similar history of changing some of their basic teachings after it became evident that they were in error? They would use that as a clear example of how their leaders were "false teachers" and "false prophets." But when it comes to the Watchtower Society they excuse it by saying it was "new light" and that "the truth" is a progressive understanding thanks to the FDS.
The Bible says that Jehovah hates those who use "dishonest scales" to measure. (Proverbs 11:1) Yet, that is exactly what JWs do in such situations. "Differing weights and differing measures - Jehovah detests them both." (Proverbs 20:10)
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blondie
ISOT, her being in a jw family explains a lot...no exposure to other religions....no real foundation to believe in jws....but perhaps a desire to please her jw family who might have let her know that unless she was a jw she would die at Armageddon.
I was raised in a jw family (my mother was one) and it took me until I was 50 to see the light. By that time the lies individually and organizationally had built up and I couldn't ignore them any more. That took 35 years from my baptism to my leaving. Just listen carefully to her and let the errors of the WTS become clear to her. Try and keep it brief. I wouldn't focus on doctrine but on what Jesus said would characterize his followers, love for each other and for those outside their community.
Love, Blondie
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insearchoftruth
Thanks so much Blondie, kind words like that and gentle guidance is what I need right now.......she will not learn unless she learns for herself....one positive is I have her interested in reading the Bible, now for a method to do that where she can experience and feel what is said in the scripture for herself, not let someone tell her how do do it!
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