Bible study with PO/sister and wife, did not go well......

by insearchoftruth 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  civicsi00

  It sounds to me like you're losing your wife to them. Don't try to focus on too many things at once because it gets confusing and it gets nowhere. Doctrinal points are very hard to point out, especially to JW's because they're under heavy mind control and it doesn't matter what the Bible says, it's what the Watchtower says that's important to them.

  My suggestion for your wife is this: You need to focus on the organization, it's policies (shunning), it's history of flip-flops (superior authorities) and false prophecies. You can start with the Generation teaching that went on for several decades, and then move backwards to 1975. You can also go over 1919 with her, and explain to her that back then they were still teaching that Russell was the FDS (until 1927), that in 1919 Rutherford stated the WT no longer needed the Holy Spirit and instead received "messages" from angelic creatures. These are key points because if you can convince her that Jesus would have NEVER picked them as the only true channel, then Jesus STILL has had nothing to do with them.

  OR you can do this: Galatians 1:8. If you can show her using the Watchtower's literature that they are preaching a "different gospel", and they HAVE admitted this, then you also have a chance of proving to her that this organization is false.

  Just my suggestions...
• 

  Double Edge

  First of all, I've never been a dub. However, when my JW friend was trying to convert me, I asked one simple question that they couldn't answer: "JWs used to be called Bible Students, right?" (correct), "Well, in the 1920's a group broke off with different doctrine and became JWs...yet there were still Bible Students, and those Bible Students are still here today with the same, unchanged doctrine - "what makes JWs right and the original Bible Students wrong?"

  That was the start of my JW friend slowly fading away from converting me.
• 

  darth frosty

  Dawg- you and I picked up on the same thing:

  My wife really ate this up and afterwards commented on how she never really thought about it, but it is quite great that they are able to make changes....what would a good answer have been for this??

  Thing is there is no answer. You have all your little facts and info, alas that means nothing to a JW. They have conditioned responses to every thing you raise, hell they just had a talk 4 titled what to say to those who say JW are false prophets.

  Your wife while not believing in or accepting witness creed was raised around it. That means she was part of the conditioning program. and that conditioning borderline hypnosis can stick with you thru out your life.

  If your wife as I suspect feels the end is near and wants to get back into 'the truth' its going to be hard to dissaude her.
• 

  Slappy

  I know I mentioned this previous, but I'll mention it again. Ask them if we are to strive to be like God? It's mentioned several times in the Bible. "Be holy as I am holy" and "Be perfect as I am perfect". If they agree to that, then point out that God is unchanging, "the same yesterday, today, and forever." God is! Remember that, God says "I am". Notice the tense. Not I was, or I will be, but "I AM". I've never really thought a whole lot about those two words, but I'm starting to understand their significance. So if a Spirit directed organization (Holy Spirit is God) then how can they say that they follow an unchanging God, when they themselves are changing?

  Granted, as some others have mentioned, it's near hopeless to argue any sort of doctrinal point with JWs since, as a cult, they are conditioned for most anything and everything. Remember, you can't argue with an idiot, he'll bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  As for how to handle your wife, I can't say much seeing as how I'm not married, but I do have one idea. Do the two of you have your own bible studies? Try it. 1 John is always a good study IMO. There is so much emotion contained within that letter as John lays out the truth that one can't help but be drawn in.

  Also, don't ever underestimate the power of prayer. That is in a 'trinity' of it's own when one is searching for the truth. The 3-legs, IMO, are Study, Prayer, and Application.

  Sry this is disjointed, gotta rush

  bk
• 

  insearchoftruth

  Some more great ideas, just need to now figure out which way I want to go, being aggressive will not work, I am either thinking of being subtle, trying to go the non-doctrinal route while sitting in on studies, but having the opportunity to ask questions when she is not in a study, but not hammering her on that, or the other approach would be to see what happens for the next couple of weeks, my wife tends to jump into things full bore, then let lose interest in them, but I think the jw sister thinks she has the hook set pretty good this time....just have to keep doing things with my wife that she enjoys and hope that the jws try to tell her that she can not....

  By the way, some questions on dos and don'ts:

  Is Karate allowed?

  Education, just heavily frowned on?

  Can one work for the government? Can one work for the defense industry?

  Would it be frowned on if she let her son go to a military school?

  What can I pull with respect to headship to get her to still do things?

  Thanks for everything?!?!?
• 

  still_in74

  If the Witnesses were wrong...dead wrong...before, but have changed their views due to "new light," then how can they condemn other religions? Maybe they're also being guided by "new light" and will eventually reach "the truth?"

  the NEW Generation teaching was aslo the OLD Generation teaching back in Rutherfords day - just pull out the old 1930's books and WT's. So if this is NEW Light... then did the Holy Spirit lie to the WTS when they changed the Generation teaching to the 1914 Gen or the Wicked Gen? What did the org do that caused Jehovah to allow them to make such a mistake for almost 80 years? OR --- could it be that this was NOT Light from HS but merely a "fleshly" interpretation made by the WTS?After all it was wrong. Jehovah doesnt make mistakes. So the Org must have made a mistake. Right? So if they changed from that Truth 80 years ago whats to say they wont change again? Why change it only to go back? How do we know they are right this time? Am I wrong to question the WTS on this when they have made this very same mistake before or should I accept this teaching whole heartedley?
• 

  Jenlet

  I'll take a shot at your questions.

  Q) Is Karate allowed?

  A) No, it's forbidden, as are all martial arts.

  Q) Education, just heavily frowned on?

  A) Yes, and then some. When I was a teenager attending college in the 1980s, I was "marked" as bad association for attending university. No one at the Kingdom Hall would hang out with me, virtually guaranteeing my exit from the religion.

  If your wife is attending college, this fact is being shrugged off since she is a potential convert. If she commits to the religion (gets baptised) there will be a huge amount of pressure on her to quit school.

  Q) Can one work for the government?

  A) Yes, although in my experience these tend to be good jobs with benefits, and having a good job is never a good thing for a JW; it tends to make the other JWs jealous. JWs can be incredibly petty - it's hard to explain if you haven't been part of the whole mess.

  Q) Can one work for the defense industry?

  A) No, this is a disfellowshipping offence - will be described in paperwork with vague terms like "violated Christian neutrality".

  Q) Would it be frowned on if she let her son go to a military school?

  A) Yes, frowns and worse, military school is not allowed for JW kids.

  Q) What can I pull with respect to headship to get her to still do things?

  A) Good question, no ideas here.

  Good luck.
• 

  oompa

  searcho: The PO said that in order to serve God how he approves, we need to be willing to make changes - sometimes drastic, sometimes subtle. My wife really ate this up and afterwards commented on how she never really thought about it, but it is quite great that they are able to make changes....what would a good answer have been for this??

  First of all....ask if there are ANY scriptures that indicate NEW LITE would be spiritual understandings. Notice I did not say they would be new TRUTHS....because if a TRUTH changes dramatically.....it was NOT a truth....which means a falsehood was being taught.

  Next, ask for examples of where when and why God taught falsehoods in the Bible......only to change it to a TRUTH later in the Bible. They may mention the early Christian rule on no need for circumsission, but that does not apply, as that was an old Jewish rule, so was NOT a change in Christian rules. However, how many times have the Chrisian rules gone round and round about circumsission? NONE! Ask what would be the logic in God revealing falsehoods to his own people, only to later teach the REAL truth!..............oompa
• 

  darth frosty

  Oompa wrote:

  ask for examples of where when and why God taught falsehoods in the Bible......only to change it to a TRUTH later in the Bible

  Gen 3:22

  Still_in74, brought up another tact you can use. How often have they changed the rules on organ transplants? They officially flip-flopped this doctrine at least 4 times.

  Along the same lines there is alternative service. Up until a few years ago, you couldn't accept alternative service in liew of serving in the military. now you can. Ask the PO why they can make such reasonings on peoples lives based not on scripture but on the whim of who was leading the organization at that time.

  Alternative service could be a really good one to hit the PO with, cause it sounds like he would've been draft eligible during nam. If he was he would've seen first hand their stance on this issue.
• 

  oompa

  Frosty, here is the scripture. I do not see a false teaching being taught as the truth.........that was then replaced by a new lite truth............oompa

  (Genesis

  3:22)22 And Jehovah God went on to say: "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—"