A Note For 'Wiz' And Other Wizards

by hillary_step 15 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Wiz,

  Their religion is just a formalism to buy their way into heaven hopin' that little ol' Saint Peter will let them through the Pearly gates.

  I have started a new thread on an issue that I think some might want to comment on.

  The quote above is taken from a recent exchange that took place on Englishman’s thread that dealt with his families attitude toward his disfellowshipped situation.

  I did this not to highlight a personal failure, but because it is typical of comments that the average JW would make.

  Have you ever stopped to think how harmful the propagation of the, 'we live - you die, we good - you bad'' mentality is, for the thinking and emotional well-being of the JW’s as a group. In fact, I have noticed in recent times that the WTS itself, has been reigning in on some of the expressions of exclusivity that they have previously encouraged, ‘worldlings’ for example, recognizing the harm it does to their cause. Unfortunately, this has probably been recommended out of a spirit of PR rather than one of Christian humility, but nevertheless the WTS wants JW’s to be careful how they describe non-JW’s.

  This sense of theological superiority, clearly existent within your note, allows people, who have little regard for the facts or other peoples viewpoints, to view non-JW's as expendable 'Armaggedon fodder'; as not real people. For example the many excited telephone calls I received after September 11th from JW's hoping that this destruction of human life was just the beginning, is purely a reflection of such ‘exclusive’ thinking.

  According to his own words, God does not desire the destruction of humans, but it seems that the average JW does.

  Further, the WTS feels that they own the only path to life, yet clearly miss the message contained in Matthew 25. Look for yourself at the attitude expressed by those who are judged worthy of life and those who are not. Those being given life are shocked to be found worthy, those expecting to receive life get a surprise.

  As for myself, I judge no man, neither yourself Wiz, or those that you judge so harshly. One thing that I do know, is that a display of arrogance is often motivated by fear and more often by plain ignorance, both qualities that are repudiated by the Christ who you obviously feel is content with your attitude.

  I invite others to comment on this thread which it seems to me, lies at the basis of much of the anger and confusion that acts as a deep gulf between the WTS and its critics.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  D wiltshire

  Thanks HS, you make some sobering points, you are one of favorite posters (well most of the time,)

  This issue of Judging is to me serious one.
  Jesus said in the sermon on the mount basiscally to stop judging people and concentrate on our own flaws then we won't be hypocrites.
  He associated with prostitutes, and sinners of all sorts, these people felt comfortable around Jesus. In fact I never read an account where Jesus said to shun anybody, which fits with the picture the 4 gospels paint of his personality.
  He said he came not to help healthy persons(self-righteous) but for the sick(sinners who recognize they need help).

  WT taught JUDGING:

  1)Sinner confesses voluntarily his sin to elders instead of help, gets public humiliation if sin is known by some in the congregation(public reproof), or he may be cast out from the group as wicked through Disfellowshipping.

  2)A person dating a worldly person is marked.

  3)A baptized JW finds a contradiction in the WT teaching and speaks of it to a friend who reports it to the elders and get DF'd because he won't recant.

  4)Some one is seen going to an R rated movie.

  5)A brother wears a beard((rebelleous spirit of the world (hippy)).

  6)Sister with slit in skirt.

  7)Father lets his son go to college.

  8)One has too many worldy friends.

  9)Sisters husband in the military and she gets a job working in the PX.

  10)Brother doesn't wear a tie to meeting or in feild service.

  I can go on and on,.. on and on,..on and on.

  If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
• 

  mustang

  I have started a list of oddball/wierdball 'doctrines' that JW's have in addition to what the rest of the world (theological or not) considers normal religious fare.

  As D_W stated, you have made some serious points. So, I added your discussion and link to my list. I will be giving this some thought and watch for response.

  BTW, this is the list so far:

  THE DOCTRINE OF NEW LIGHT
  THE DOCTRINE OF 'HARBORING PRIVATE IDEAS'
  THE DOCTRINE OF 'IMPERFECT MEN'
  THE DOCTRINE OF CLERGY-LAITY DISTINCTION
  THE DOCTRINE OF JUDGING
  THE DOCTRINE OF 'OVERZEALOUS BROTHERS'
  THE DOCTRINE OF 'WHERE WILL YOU GO'

  I collect pertinent commentary from others and add my own editorial comments to this list. Using links/URL's and hypertext, I am compiling a 'mini-book' on these subjects.

  Notice the inclusion of the relatively new 'HARBORING PRIVATE IDEAS'. THE recent WT article that formalizes this launches this 'new light', LOL. I am awaiting reports of the first DF'ing based on this article. I'm sure that this has been done in the past, but not so stated.

  These off-the-wall doctrines seem to be a great part of the glue that binds the JW's together. They form the greater part of the
  'mud'/mortar that is daubed over the chinks in a Dubs personality to keep them firmly in line with CURRENT Dub policy.

  These obscure doctrines are more fascinating than the standard Hell-fire and Trinity fare that are getting so boring.

  Mustang
• 

  hillary_step

  David & Mustang,

  Thank you for your contributions.

  The whole concept of exclusivity, which is the life blood of the WTS has imho a serious effect on the way the average JW view the validity of the right to life of other people compared to their own. Exclusivity is judgment, judgment based on ignorance and prejudice is dangerous.

  A perpetual diet of exclusivity, force fed in a endless routine upon the average mind and heart can desensitize any person to the feelings of others. It is a standard basis for political indoctrination and the WTS have developed it into an art form.

  Wiz, in an attempt to defend the sad treatment by JW’s to Englishman’s family fell into the trap of making declarations that clearly show that he feels that JW’s are better people than non-JW’s. My argument is that he has no scriptural basis to defend such a judgment, but made his comments from conditioning not compassion.

  I may be wrong and would be interested in his response.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  ianao

  Like 'Daddy always told me. If you wanna feel special, ya gotta' put down others ta' do it.
• 

  hillary_step

  This post was edited away to digital Sheol, due to a rather strange duplication problem that has occured on this thread.

  HS
• 

  ianao

  Like 'Daddy always told me. If you wanna feel special, ya gotta' put down others ta' do it.
• 

  thewiz

  In my many years as a kiss-ass JW and going door-to-door I would say about 95% of the people I talked to didn't even know there own religion. Let alone the bible.

  I have a guy I work with and his Dad is a muslim and HE told me that his dad, and implying that many other muslims like him are the same way as the stero-typical Catholics, they don't know anything about their respective bibles or know why they believe what they do. He's not a JDub and has never been one yet HE said it. His comment about Islam surprised me.

  I get the same impression among many Jewish people. Their religion is just traditionalism/formalism. IT means nothing to them. I also got the same impression from the Amish when I went there.

  To some people they practice their religion more deeply and some are sincere, but I haven't meet many. One point is, if what a person believes in can be proved not to be true, then if a person continues to believe in that then they are believing in a lie. That's all. It's that simple. Show me the proof that something or someone is wrong and I'll believe it, but I'm not going to trust in speculation, gossip, opinions, or personal vendettas.

  I've seen Jay Leno talk to people who are supposed to be bible believers who don't know the first thing about the bible, yet when they die, they all expect to go to heaven.

  One women told me, you know what the bible says, "Let your conscience be your guide." I had to remind her that that was a quote from Pinnochio @1934.

  I think many people get their beliefs about the bible from the movies. I wouldn't doubt in the least that my grandfather believed in the Cecil B. DeMill classic The Ten Commandments.

  It's like their belief system comes from the back of a bubble gum wrapper.

  People go to confession admit their sins to a priest and the PREIST forgives them and tells them to say a bunch of Hail marries and Our Fathers. They have virtually no concept of the blood redeeming value of Jesus' sacrifice.

  Granted there are things cannot be empirically proven. Matters of faith. The main reason why I believe the bible is because there is virtually no scientific explanation as to why the bible should be believed.

  Say in a legal setting, no sane person (w|c)ould use the bible as defense. The ONLY way a person could believe in the bible is faith and that's where many people start to crumble. Push a person on what they believe and then challenge thier belief using the bible and then the excusses start: "Oh the bible was written by men anyway..."

  D wiltshire
  Jesus was under the mosiac law he didn't break it he fulfilled it. They were an exclusive people. By being born a Jew he was bound by the rules. And I don't mean the rules of the Pharisees/Sadducces.

  Hillary Step
  

  God does not desire the destruction of humans, but it seems that the average JW does.

  According to the bible did God bring the flood that destroyed all human life outside the ark? It's the same God that will bring Armageddon. I don't think I have to go through all the scriptual refeneces that you all know. It is very clear that God is going to have a destruction of all that is wicked. He does not desire it, but to maintain spiritual soveriegnty, it is an eventual reality.

  ianao
  If I prove something as truth how is that putting anyone down? Does Santa Claus exist? No. How is that putting anyone down? It's just the truth. That's all.

  So I guess I can take it that many people here that put the JDubs down do it to make themselves exclusive/better/superior?

  How can everyone be right? An eventual truth must come out.

  Does God exist? Yes or no, it can't be both. That means those who believe in God or atheists. ONLY ONE can be right.

  Did Jesus exist? And was he the Messiah? Christian or Jews. ONLY ONE can be right.

  How can I believe in a/my religion and then say that the other religion is right too? I would be saying my religion is a lie. Also, by my believing in a/my religion I'm saying, by implication, that everyone else's is a lie, ain't I?
• 

  hillary_step

  Wiz,

  According to the bible did God bring the flood that destroyed all human life outside the ark? It's the same God that will bring Armageddon. I don't think I have to go through all the scriptual refeneces that you all know. It is very clear that God is going to have a destruction of all that is wicked. He does not desire it, but to maintain spiritual soveriegnty, it is an eventual reality.

  My post was not directed at God, it was directed at your good self and your reply, respectfully, does not answer the basis of the issue I posed.

  At issue is the attitude of JW's who having been dealt huge servings of 'exclusivity pie', and have subsequently come to believe that among the whole of the population of the World, they are the only ones that will survive Gods wrath. It is the effect that this thinking has on their attitude toward other people that is at issue, not Gods attitude toward others.

  The whole objective of the parable of the 'Good Samaritan' was surely to underline to those imprisoned in the Arkaic (pun intended), 'us and them' legalistic theology of the day, that something was badly amiss with their attitude toward other people. Remember Wiz, the 'Good Samaritan' was neither Jew, nor even a disciple of Christ, but a Samaritan.

  With that in mind, I really need ask you only one question - Wiz, who really is your neighbour? Can you be sure that you have not judged a 'Good Samaritan', by the comments that originated this post.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  thewiz

  If you don't believe in the bible remove that thought for the sake of THIS arguement; say you DO believe in the bible.

  hillary_step I don't know your background so I don't know what you believe, I'm not attributing any bad/wrong motives, I'm just using this ex. for the sake of THIS arguement, that's all.

  At issue is the philosophical/bible view. According to the BIBLE, is God going to destroy the wicked? Do you believe in the bible? Read the damn thing upside down if you have to.

  The BIBLE teaches YES, it and Jesus even refer/use the "example" of the world being destroyed by the flood as a reference.

  If the JDubs believe they are the ONLY ones who believe and follow the bible, then they, as a GROUP, WILL be the ONLY ones to survive, and that everyone else IS wicked and must be destroyed. It's a fundamental truth, to them. What God decides to do for INDIVIDUALS outside of their group, is up to him. It's not a we are better than them. Within THEIR world it IS the ONLY way to think and/or rationalize. There cannot be two truths.

  Stay within the context of this arguement.