How Jesus Returns?

by cameo-d 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

cameo-d

I would not expect Jesus/Michael to appear as a fullgrown man because, he comes as a thief in the night and as a thief he has to be here without people recognizing him for a period.
The Day of Jehovah and the return of Jesus, by scriptural references, seem to be two very different occassions.
The "Day of Jehovah" describes global catastrophe...and this is what comes as a thief in the night. According to scripture, The Day of Jehovah starts with the Abomination described at Matthew 24:15. Immediately after this abomination takes place, then shall be great tribulation such as has never been. So, I think this reveals the kickstart of the events.
Even so, those who are searching for truth (like some people I see here) will observe what is lining up to take place and will understand the meanings so as to be able to recognize what this abomination will be. That day will not come as a thief to everyone. 1 Thessolanians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. For most people it will be a surprise, but some people will be prepared for the event and will recognize the abomination for what it is.
The sign of Jesus does not appear until after a duration of this great tribulation takes place. It sounds to me like its going to be a rough ride and there will be a lot of people who will die during this time. It is not Jesus doing the killing. Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after this tribulation, the sky is darkened and a sign of Jesus' return will appear in the sky. I cannot find where it actually says that Jesus himself will come back in the flesh and will actually be on the earth. It says that his angels will be the ones to gather the elect, not he himself. (Will the tribulation still be going on while the elect are gathered? I wonder.)
(I can't resolve Jesus as being Michael. I am not sure how the WT explains that, so I really can't discuss it, except to say I don't get it. But that is another topic)
NewTruth

Hi Cameo,
You said, it's the day of Jehovah that comes as thief in the night, but the scriptures also say that Jesus comes as a thief in the night too right? see Rev. 16:15.....I agree, the abomination kicks off with the GT. You are right, a few will recognize the abomination for what it is and will not be fooled and they will not get the mark of the beast. Yes, the sign or the ability to recognize that Jesus is here, will come after the GT. I think alot of people die, but in a spiritual way. They will go on the goat side. And after the GT, the son of man will separate people. I think the elect are gathered after the GT.
Rev. 5:9 and 10, says the kingdom of God will reign on the earth. The Jews are still looking for a human messiah. Why would people think otherwise except for the fact that all church leaders talk contrary so adamently.
The angels reap, true, but the son of man, Michael battle and in Dan. 12:1, he stands up for his people during the GT.
Anymore ideas.. I like this subject..
cameo-d

but the scriptures also say that Jesus comes as a thief in the night too right? see Rev. 16:15
Rev. 16 is still referring to "Day of Jehovah" (Armageddon). It does not imply that Jesus is the thief in the night. The previous verses describe the vials of wrath that are poured out upon mankind.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Yes, the sign or the ability to recognize that Jesus is here, will come after the GT.
"Jesus is here"? "The sky is darkened"? Is this darkening caused by a natural event? Is it the result of some action of man....maybe a mishap using HAARP technology? Or does the power grid go down? What is the "sign" of Jesus that appears in the sky?
Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after this tribulation, the sky is darkened and a sign of Jesus' return will appear in the sky. I cannot find where it actually says that Jesus himself will come back in the flesh and will actually be on the earth.
I think there will not be that many people left by that time. Scripture says if the time were not cut short none would be saved. I think that's referring to the annhiliation of the human race.
I think alot of people die, but in a spiritual way. They will go on the goat side.
During the Great Tribulation, I think many people will die in a physical way.
The goats are the religious leaders who are willfully and knowingly telling lies and promoting a deception. The people who listen are victims. I think that's why its called "god spell". They are somewhat hypnotized or something. They do not listen to their own conscience. They give up their reasoning ability to conform. It seems to be quite a dilemma that they forsake their own families in adherence to religious dictators. And these dictators knowingly blaspheme by saying they are appointed by god.
And after the GT, the son of man will separate people.
I think the circumstances that prevail during the Great Tribulation are what causes the separation. Each person will have to make choices, and those choices will require taking a stand or making a compromise. It's no different than what many here are going through. Do they compromise their integrity and sanity to show up for meetings just so they can hold onto their families? Or do they speak out for truth because it frees them from the bondage of deceit? Everyone will have to make this personal choice. This was Jesus's message of "salvation". He spoke out against the corruption of religion and politics. This is why he was thrown out of the synagogues and run out of towns.
he stands up for his people during the GT
Are you saying he provides divine protection? I see no evidence of that.
Anymore ideas.. I like this subject..
Your turn. Yes, I think it is very interesting to explore, too.
NewTruth

Hi Cameo..
Okay, I think you are being a bit blindsided somehow in the 'thief in the night' thing. Here's another scripture:
Rev. 3:3b But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Are you trying to say, Jesus isn't coming to us again? Okay, here's another.
Heb. 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people, and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
I think the 'sign of the son of man' is actually Michael (Jesus) himself. The sky darkening, etc. may be part of the happenings thereof. Please note Is. 11:10:
In that day the root of Jesse will stand as a signal/banner for the peoples, the nations will rally toward him.
A sign, signal, banner - something that ones can look toward and rally around. Similiar to the copper serpent in the wilderness that was raised up for people to look toward.
Revelations is very symbolic and the deaths can be symbolic as dyingfrom God's standpoint and then after Jesus appears, they many be given a chance to repent as we will have 1,000 years.
The goats are the religious leaders who are willfully and knowingly telling lies and promoting a deception.
It seems the religious leaders are pretty mislead, however itI think that the division is more political during the GT, as the dividing mark is if one gets the mark of the beast or not. Beasts are always political in the scriptures.
he stands up for his people during the GT
Are you saying he provides divine protection? I see no evidence of that.
no, I'm not saying this. Here's Dan. 12:1
At that time Michael, the great prince, who protects your people will arise.
I think he will begin fighting against the beast and the horns in behalf of God's people, which includes Armaggedon.
comments appreciated.
cameo-d

Okay, I think you are being a bit blindsided somehow in the 'thief in the night' thing.
NT, If I am blindsided, perhaps others will chime in on this particular aspect and help me to develop a more well rounded view.
Heb. 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people, and he will appear a second time , not to bear sin but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Interesting scripture, but I have difficulty in believing this was authored by anyone who actually knew Jesus or understood his purpose.
First of all, Jesus opposed the blood sacrifices and what was being preached in the temples. This was his purpose in the outburst of turning over the tables of the money changers. Religion was a business and it still is today. You never heard of Jesus advocating or participating or upholding the act of blood sacrifice.
"Christ was sacrificed to take away the sins of many people"...this relates to the scapegoat sacrifice. This started in the garden of eden when an animal was sacrificed for adam and eve's sin and they were made to wear the skins of the sacrificed animal as punishment. In a scapegoat sacrifice, the "sinner" rubs the head of the goat, cow, chicken, whatever, and believes that he is transferring his ~~cooties~~ sins onto the animal. The animal is then killed in place of the sinner so as to appease this god. Jesus NEVER validated this ritual in word or deed.
Why does this 'god' need blood? ( the blood was collected in a cup and left on the altar). You would expect a god who is a great creator to be more resourceful in finding solutions rather than just violently killing something and being destructive.
Christ as a sacrifice for sin is a convenient way for people to not have to take responsibility for their own actions. It is (immature) human nature to always blame someone else for our mistakes or our faults. Many cultures before Jesus practiced human sacrifice. Sometimes it was to appease an angry god when they heard the rumblings of a volcano. Sometimes the human sacrifice was sent to be a messenger to the gods to let them know the people were experiencing drought, etc. But because Jesus spoke against the religious teachings of the scribes and pharisees, a lot of people who found these deceptions profitable, had it in for him. Christ as a sacrifice, is an evil way of justifying his murder and placating the christians. They made up a good reason for his murder, tied it into their agenda of scapegoat sacrifice, and the christians accepted it as an explanation. And once again, the ruling satanic bloodline of Cain (which established religion), laughs at the gullability of humankind.
Jesus sacrificed himself by giving his time on earth to try to teach people a better way to live. He gave examples of how we should love one another. He tried to show by action the meaning of love and how love behaves. Instead of having a good time, or pursuing his own interests, he sacrificed his own desires by doing for others. This is why his life was a gift to us.
Because it seems somewhat contrived, scholars have regarded the authorship of the book of Hebrews as "questionable".
The title, "To the Hebrews," which appears in the earliest known copy of the epistle is not a part of the original manuscript. There is no salutation, the letter simply begins with the assertion that Jesus, the Son of God, has appeared, atoned for our sins, and is now seated at the right hand of God in heaven ( Hebrews 1:1-4 ).
Church tradition teaches that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews, and until the 1800s, that issue was closed. However, though a vast majority of Christians—both and scholars and the laity—still believe Paul wrote the book, there are some tempting reasons to think otherwise.

First and foremost is the lack of a salutation. Some sort of personal salutation from Paul appears in all of his letters. So it would seem that writing anonymously is not his usual method; therefore, the reasoning goes, Hebrews cannot be one of his letters. Second, the overall composition and style is of a person who is a very sophisticated writer. Even though he was certainly a sophisticated communicator, Paul stated that he purposely did not speak with a commanding vocabulary ( 1 Corinthians 1:17 ; 2:1 ; 2 Corinthians 11:6 ).
The book of Hebrews quotes extensively from the Old Testament. Paul, as a Pharisee, would have been familiar with the Scripture in its original Hebrew language. In other letters, Paul either quotes the Masoretic Text (the original Hebrew) or paraphrases it. However, all of the quotes in this epistle are taken out of the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament), which is inconsistent with Paul's usage. Finally, Paul was an apostle who claimed to receive his revelations directly from the Lord Jesus ( 1 Corinthians 11:23 ; Galatians 1:12 ). The writer of Hebrews specifically says that he was taught by an apostle ( Hebrews 2:3 ).
myelaine

dear cameo-d...
"Are you saying he provides divine protection? I see no evidence of that."...
the very act of calling out israel IS divine protection..."the israel of God" is protected...they are said to have a hedge around them...the Word of God which protects them from deceivers in these last days. matthew 10:28...rev 2:9-11
love michelle
NewTruth

Cameo.. I believe in the blood sacrifice and the book of Hebrews.. I did read your thoughts over carefully however..
cameo-d

dear cameo-d...
"Are you saying he provides divine protection? I see no evidence of that."...
the very act of calling out israel IS divine protection..."the israel of God" is protected...they are said to have a hedge around them...the Word of God which protects them from deceivers in these last days. matthew 10:28...rev 2:9-11
Thanks for your thoughts, Michelle. Just because I say "I see no evidence of it" does not mean that it does not exist. Just that if it does exist, I have not found it. There could be scripture I have missed or not read. I am not making a declaration. Only asking a question in my way of saying 'show me'.
One reason I am at this website is because I think ex-jws are probably more well read than most people when it comes to scriptures. Why? Because I think most here have had to search deeper to shake out the lies. And because all who have left WT have been very courageous; it has cost dearly to loose family and friends. This is something you don't see among other religions. In that way, I can see why you consider your escape as a "divine protection". That makes sense. It's a valid point. It was a viewpoint I had not considered. Thank you for your answer.
I was looking at divine protection more in the way of being untouched by hardship and suffering. I was looking for divine protection being manifested in a different way from what you described. You were looking at it from a different angle and gave a whole new persperctive here.
Your scriptural references:
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I see this as advice, but I would expect divine protection would keep you from being killed.
Rev.2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Again, this does not show divine protection from harm. I just see this as a warning and also as empathy; that your suffering does not go without notice.
Actually, I had started a thread on divine protection...but since we are bringing it up here, I will mention my previous question. Using the above verse where Jesus acknowledges and warns that we are to suffer much, seems to contradict with the OT scripture of being "untouchable" by being under 'Jehovah's protective tent'.
Zephaniah 2: 3 Seek ye Jehovah, all ye meek of the earth, that have kept his ordinances; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye will be hid in the day of Jehovah's anger.
In comparing Rev. 2:10 with Zaphaniah 2:3 ....how can this big difference between OT..(inspired words 'directly from god' ) be reconciled with what appears to be a more truthful version of reality, suffering, and injustice in the NT?
myelaine

dear cameo-d...
read zephaniah 1:7...at the time of the end God's people should be showing particular...fear...not sitting in complacency like it is recorded in 1:12. God is searching out with a lamp...we should be diligent in doing His will. "Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.”
But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”." mark 3:31-35...(God's will is that all israel will be saved)...
if you connect the dots...there are far too many people that have hunkered down in the church thinking they are going to be "hidden". those that actually do the will of the Father are those hidden in the day of His wrath.
anyway...that's just my opinion...frankly, I am scared to meet my maker...the God of the entire universe!!!
love michelle
mustang

First of all, Jesus opposed the blood sacrifices and what was being preached in the temples.
Wrong: this was Judaic Law and it was the "type", precursor or the thing that came before the ultimate real goal. And Jesus' sacrifice was the ultimate, real goal; Jesus of course knew this. Jesus was the fulfillment of the animal sacrifices.
The sacrifices were fine: the money changers selling lame animals at extortionate prices weren't.
Is this totally true and correct in the long term of things? Unknown; but this is how a JW's think. That is from the digested study of the old yellow "Armageddon book" in the 50's. I sat through that in the B-Studies for months, at a single digit age.
Jesus was considered a Teacher, effectively a Rabbi. When he entered the synagogue, he was expected to preach or speak; he asked for the scroll of Isaiah; he read the prophecy, remember? As such, he would have upheld the tradition of sacrifices.
He was found in the temple area ass a child, discussing the law with the Rabbis. Good time to tell them off about the sacrifices, but I don't think so. He was being a good Jew, at that time.
I'm very puzzled: where did you get that he was against the sacrifices? Not from any JW lore...
This is just one of many points. NT is closer than you are, JW-wise.
Mustang

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