any problems with this 607 response from Elder PO

by besty 42 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • digderidoo
    digderidoo

    Looks like i've joined the party late. Much of the issues have been covered, but that said i will add my bit.

    The date 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians is arrived at from within Scripture itself.

    There are no dates in the bible, so where he gets this statement from i do not know. All of bible chronology has to have a starting point with secular chronology.

    That the exiled Jews would spend 70 years in Babylon was prophesied in many places – 2 Chronicles 36:21; Jeremiah 25:11; Jeremiah 29:10; Daniel 9:2.

    The Jewish 70 year exile is only one interpretation of those scriptures. Others being Babylonian dominance of the area, starting from 609BCE at the capture of Assyria to 539BCE. So that all the nations would serve Babylon. Notice Jeremiah 25:11 says 'these nations', not 'this nation'. Other interpretations are a 70 year period from the accepted date of 587/6 BCE for the fall of Jerusalem until 516BCE for the rebuilding of the temple.

    539 BCE is a pivotal date – both Scriptural chronology and secular history point to 539 BCE as the date for the fall of Babylon.

    In scripture there are no dates mentioned, so your brother i wrong to ascert that the date is scriptural. Secular chronology does point to the date of 539 BCE being correct. This is the pivotal date, the WTS relies on secular evidence here, nothing else.

    Scripture then shows that the Jews returned to Judea in 537 BCE.

    B*lls*it !! Ask him where. 537BCE is a guess. This is their weakest link in my view, 537BCE is THE pivotal date for this prophecy. They guess it took 18 months for Cyrus to announce his decree after 539 BCE. Interestingly they used to think it was 536BCE, until they realised that Russell had his maths wrong in counting a year zero in his calculations. When Rutherford decided to correct this and place one year from 1BCE-1AD, instead of counting a year forward to 1915AD, which was not an option, they added the year onto 536BCE, so hey presto 537BCE was the date Cyrus announced his decree.

    We give primacy to the scriptures that the exile was 70 years, thus the destruction of Jerusalem must have been in 607 BCE.

    They interprate the 70 year period as a Jewish exile from 537BCE, the made up date, to 607BCE.

    So, when deciding when we think Jerusalem was destroyed, we can either accept the Scriptural chronology (with 1914 following from this evidenced by dramatic and irrevocable change in the world situation i.e. “the last days”)

    As shown this is not scriptural chronology....and remember the change in the world situation was not the original prediction. The prediction was Armaggedon would occur.

    or go with uncertain secular sources of evidence which are often subject to change, revision and new archaeological discoveries.

    Those same uncertain secular sources that the WTS uses to pinpoint 539BCE as the pivotal date. Ptolemy's Canon for instance for which pinpoints 539BCE as the date for Babylon being conquered that the WTS likes to quote from, remember the picture in the Live Forever book? Yet Ptolemy's Canon also pinpoints 587/6BCE as the date for Jerusalem's destruction, suddenly it becomes "uncertain".

    The Scriptures will never change that the exile would be 70 years and everyone agrees with 539 BCE for the fall of Babylon, and 537 BCE as the date of the return from exile.

    Who's everyone? Everyone who's a JW maybe pinpoint 537BCE as the date, nobody else.

    It's good that your brother is talking to you about this and trying to establish a defence. My advice would be not to give him a full response, but just to ask how he arrives from scripture that 537BCE is the date Cyrus announced his decree. The onus is on them to prove their doctrine first, rather than on anyone else to disprove it.

    It falls apart at all levels, let alone how they then go on to interprate the end of the gentile times of Matthew 24 with Daniel adding 2520 years and all that.

    It's all mishmash.

    Paul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    "That the exiled Jews would spend 70 years in Babylon was prophesied in many places – 2 Chronicles 36:21; Jeremiah 25:11; Jeremiah 29:10; Daniel 9:2."

    You mean aside from the fact that Chronicles was not a prophecy, and that Daniel didn't say the exile would last 70 years but that the years prophesied by Jeremiah would be fulfilled at the end of 70 years, and that Jeremiah was prophesying the 70 years for Babylon ascendancy, not for the exile, and that at the end of the 70 years for BABYLON God restored them, even though Nebuchadnezzar had died some time prior to that restoration?

    No, nothing wrong with it. Except for the fact that even what he called the evidence they give "primacy" to does not actually state what they interpret it to mean. In fact, they start 70 year clock at the destruction of Jerusalem, when Jeremiah plainly told them twice that Jerusalem need not be destroyed AT ALL for their 70 years of servitude to be fulfilled.

    Jeremiah 27:12-18 12 Even to Zed·e·ki'ah the king of Judah I spoke according to all these words, saying: “Bring YOUR necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him and his people and keep on living. 13 Why should you yourself and your people die by the sword, by the famine and by the pestilence according to what Jehovah has spoken to the nation that does not serve the king of Babylon? 14 And do not listen to the words of the prophets that are saying to YOU men, ‘YOU will not serve the king of Babylon,’ because falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU. 15 “‘For I have not sent them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘but they are prophesying in my name falsely, to the end that I shall disperse YOU, and YOU will have to perish, YOU men and the prophets that are prophesying to YOU.’” 16 And to the priests and to all this people I spoke, saying: “This is what Jehovah has said, ‘Do not listen to the words of YOUR prophets that are prophesying to YOU, saying: “Look! The utensils of the house of Jehovah are being brought back from Babylon soon now!” For falsehood is what they are prophesying to YOU. 17 Do not listen to them. Serve the king of Babylon and keep on living. Why should this city become a devastated place? 18 But if they are prophets and if the word of Jehovah does exist with them, let them, please, beseech Jehovah of armies, that the utensils that are remaining over in the house of Jehovah and the house of the king of Judah and in Jerusalem may not come into Babylon.’

    Even right down to the very END, the city could have been spared if Zedekiah had served the king of Babylon.

    Jeremiah 38:17-18 17 Jeremiah now said to Zed·e·ki'ah: “This is what Jehovah, the God of armies, the God of Israel, has said, ‘If you will without fail go out to the princes of the king of Babylon, your soul will also certainly keep living and this city itself will not be burned with fire, and you yourself and your household will certainly keep living. 18 But if you will not go out to the princes of the king of Babylon, this city must also be given into the hand of the Chal·de'ans, and they will actually burn it with fire, and you yourself will not escape out of their hand.’”

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC

    I am Soooooo glad I dont give a shyte about 607, jooish history, or joewhorevah any more.

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