I went to the Catholic Church and...

by Awakened at Gilead 39 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Awakened at Gilead
    Awakened at Gilead
    We have created this mess. We have all asked the question why God allows suffering. As an atheist do you have the answer to why there is suffering?

    You just answered your own question. "Why is there suffering?" You answer with the truth: "We have created this mess".

    Unfortunately, looking at the history of religion, much suffering has been caused in the name of the Muslim god, the Christian god, and innumerable other Gods.

    Part of the solution is to be tolerant of others and not insist that "God" be the answer to man's problems. If we wait on "God" to work it all out, we won't look for an end to suffering ourselves.

  • lrkr
    lrkr

    Good to see you-

    Churches interest me very much. Because now, I can see them not as a den of demons- but an attempt by people (architects, sculptors and artists, usually) to express or experience the divine through a built space.

    So much more interesting than Kingdom Hall architecture! And the music and sermons can be very interesting and uplifting also- they really are much more layered and interesting than the repetitious mind control drivel that you hear at the KH.

    Not that I believe in God- but going to church can be an occasionally nice experience.

  • cabasilas
    cabasilas
    Unfortunately, looking at the history of religion, much suffering has been caused in the name of the Muslim god, the Christian god, and innumerable other Gods.

    Sadly, Lance, true. Atheism doesn't have a clean sheet either if you consider what the Communist regimes accomplished in the last century. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot promoted official state atheism and millions suffered under them.

    But, I really don't think it's fair for me to cite that. The average atheist I know is a lot more compassionate and caring and I would not mistake them for Stalin or Pol Pot. So, because some religionists in the past have erred greatly doesn't make religion itself bad -- just as not all atheists are bad because of the "sins" (can atheists sin? <g>) of some notable atheists. I mean, I'm rather impressed with the political thought of some notable early American political thinkers. And yet, I'm aghast of how American society (and the Constitution) tolerated slavery for so many years before the Civil War. And once they ended slavery look how long it took for civil rights to become a real issue in America (and there are still major problems today.) Does that history make the whole American society and government something to be rejected?

    Part of the solution is to be tolerant of others and not insist that "God" be the answer to man's problems. If we wait on "God" to work it all out, we won't look for an end to suffering ourselves.

    Good advice, though it's the JW mindset that we should just sit back and wait on God to work it out. Most mainstream religions have a strong social and charity involvement (consider the Abolitionists, hospital work, soup kitchens, etc.) It's a bit unfair to cast believers into a "wait on God" mode like the JWs. Many believers would say that they are to be the instruments that God should use here on earth and this inspires them to do various charity and social work. St Teresa of Avila put it this way: "Christ has no body now on earth but yours, no hands but yours, no feet but yours; yours are the eyes through which to look at Christ's compassion to the world, yours are the feet with which he is to go about doing good, and yours are the hands with which he is to bless us now."

    Yes, in the name of religion some terrible things have been done. But, much good has been done by folks like Martin Luther King, Jr., Mahatma Ghandi, Mother Teresa of Calcutta (and others) who have been inspired by their religious faith.

    Anyway, glad you enjoyed Messiah. It's a great piece of music.

  • StAnn
    StAnn

    Our parish has a choir that sings in Gregorian chant, made up of professional singers from the Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music. Awe inspiring! Speaking of beautiful Catholic churches, here's a picture of the altar in mine:

    http://www.oldstmarys.org/sacredart/index.html

    Sacred Art & Architecture

    The architectural style of St. Mary's is eclectic. The engaged pilasters and classical entablature are in the Greek Revival style. The round windows of the facade add a touch of the Baroque, while the frames of the window and the ogive and quatrefoil openings in the tower show signs of the 19th century's growing interest in Romanesque and Gothic.

    In 1842, a clock was installed in the steeple of St. Mary's. The original face and mechanism are still in place, but the weights and pendulum were removed when the clock was electrified over 100 years after its installation. St. Mary's is the oldest clock tower in Cincinnati, and one of the oldest in the United States.

    The first bell was blessed and placed in the tower in 1843. It was cast in Cincinnati by Levi Coffin, who was head of the underground railroad and who personally helped over 3,000 slaves to escape to Canada. After it was installed, the bell served many years as the fire alarm for the northeastern section of the city.

    The interior of the church is richly embellished both with works of art and objects of devotion. Especially noteworthy are three oil paintings of the Blessed Virgin Mary above the main altar. Fifteen feet high, the paintings are changed at appropriate seasons of the year, being hoisted into place by a system of pulleys. Visible under the high altar are the bones of a woman martyr discovered in 1844 in the Roman catacombs and brought to Cincinnati by Father Clemens Hammer, first pastor of St. Mary's.

    ad maiorem dei gloriam

    Serena

  • Awakened at Gilead
    Awakened at Gilead
    Sadly, Lance, true. Atheism doesn't have a clean sheet either if you consider what the Communist regimes accomplished in the last century. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot promoted official state atheism and millions suffered under them.

    I will quote Scott Dickers (Founder of The Onion) in reply:

    Atheists are blamed for some of the greatest genocides of the 20th century. Hitler, Stalin, Mao. People think that these lunatics were simply fulfilling the moral vacuum of atheism. These guys are an albatross oaround my neck every time I get talking to a religious person. Pointing out how many millions have been killed by religious extremists usually devolves into an argument where were just adding up members of dead in columns and that's not productive. Can't reasonable people simply agree that human beings in the grip of any ideology can be real jerks? Especially if they are bat-shit insane?... Ideologues...are incapable of learning - they reject any factual information that contradicts their beliefs".

    Freethought Today, Nov 2008, published by Freedom From Religion Foundation

  • FlyingHighNow
    FlyingHighNow

    St. Ann, that is beautiful. I like that better than the modern churches, though some of them can be beautiful in their simplicity.

  • cabasilas
    cabasilas
    Can't reasonable people simply agree that human beings in the grip of any ideology can be real jerks?

    Lance, that was my point. I had said:

    But, I really don't think it's fair for me to cite that. The average atheist I know is a lot more compassionate and caring and I would not mistake them for Stalin or Pol Pot. So, because some religionists in the past have erred greatly doesn't make religion itself bad -- just as not all atheists are bad because of the "sins" (can atheists sin? <g>) of some notable atheists.

    I only brought up that some atheists have done terrible things after you had said that terrible things have been done in the name of God.

    Yes, humans (both religious and non-religious) can be real jerks.

  • abbagail
    abbagail

    Beautiful music, choirs, voices, lighting, ambience, candles, "ritual," etc. etc. could never make up for false doctrine.

    False Doctrine + Pedo Priests = Two Wrongs Don't Make a Right.

    "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him" (2 Corinthians 11:3,4).

    I would never step foot in a Catholic Church for any kind of service, no thanks.

    (I was raised Catholic so I can say that).

    I'd rather listen to Handel's Hallelujah Chorus on my cell's ringtone, which is my favorite, btw, vs. going to a CC to hear it.

    But whatever floats your boat, you pagan scoundrels! ;-D
    /ag

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    be the first question I ask God upon his revelation though. If he doesn't have a valid reason I will tell him to stick it up his ***

    Without humility, I doubt he will ever reveal Himself to you. It sounds to me more that you are nursing anger and that this is the root cause of your refusal to believe. You have been psychologiucally abused by a spiritual "father" (the WTS) and your anger and unbelief is a natural response.

    BTS

  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    I went to a Greek orthodox church for a wedding and we were suprised at how lovely the old church was inside...we also stood and kneeled with the others....

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