Were you atheist/agnostic BEFORE you came here?

by gumby 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • gumby
    gumby

    Joelbear: You are so good with words! You said " I doubt that I would ever be an atheist either. However, I will continue to question until the explanation of god offered makes more sense"
    I feel the same way. The DESIGN in our universe and with all that is in it makes it hard for me to understand how ones come to feel as they do about God. I still have many unanswered questions myself about how God operates and why he has done what he has.
    Jesus in saying if you seek wisdom and dig for it as for gold tells me that questions we may have are not always on the surface. I feel some give up digging too soon before coming to other conclusions.
    It has never made sense to me that someone as powerful as the one who has made all this around us just left us here and then he takes off doing something else. There is a reason he took the time to arrange this planet in the way that it is designed and put life on it.
    Things work in harmony too well for a 'Higher Power to make it and not leave us a reason on why he did it.
    OK FOLKS!!!!!! LET'S HERE YOUR 2 CENTS WORTH!

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    gumby, you put that quite nicely, so let me answer you in a moderate way;

    At what point in your life did you no longer believe in God or believe the bible?
    I left in '93, basically as I was unhappy and it felt all wrong. I still believed in god and prayed.

    I started examining my worldview that same year, as I went to College, and started four years of science education. This proved to me, fairly conclusively, that the standard set of criticisms about evolution were usually made by people who did not have a science education of any depth, or by people who had an initiating mindset that meant they selectively interpreted data to support that initiating mindset.

    I first encountered other JW's online at www.support4xjws.org in '96 or '97. By this point I was an atheist. This opinion has simply deepened. I have never seen a creationist 'win' an online debate; these debates tend to follow a pattern.

    Very often they end with the creationist entrenched in circular logic, or with the creationist refusing to accept scientific reasoning or methodology, or with the creationist citing false or misleading evidnece (that they may belieev genuine), or with the creationist simply running away from the arguement. Examine the threads and form your opinion, but do so with an open mind, otherwsie there is no point. Evaluate each arguement on its own merits, not on whether it agrees with your current beliefs. Remember, god will not exist just because you believe in it.

    May I point out your question betrays elements of the cultic mindset you are seeking to escape? You ask "How many came to this conclution AFTER coming to this db?" as though you still believe that 'bad associations' spoil useful habits, as if our 'apostacy' might contaminate others by simply coming here.

    Truth does not need to be hidden or protected. If you come here, and read what you find here, and still believe in god, it is because it is right for you and that is wonderful. If you come here and come to a point in your life where you realise that there is no god, that is equally wonderful. Look at this thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=16693&page=3&site=3 - that's actually the last page of it, but read it through. It shows typical creationist arguementation AND the fact one can retain a belief in god (my discussion with Frenchy).

    I understand you have the best motives in wishing to protect those you hold dear, but surely by doing this you are making a decision THEY should make. Remember, you don't need to protect truth. As the Beatles said 'living is easy with eyes closed'. Open your eyes, I don't care if you end up believing in god or not, just as long as you are not fooling yourself.

    Please do not fall into the easy, cultic mindset or supposing that xJW's who become atheists do so for any other reason other than there being no evidence for god. Also, realise that believing in evolution or creation has NOTHING to do with whether you believe in god or not. My disbelief in god is seperate from my belief in eviolution. Do not assume the Bible is a literal book; you made other mistaken assumptions, and one way to marry your belief in god and a reasonable scientific viewpoint is to realise that at best the Bible is a glimpse of something greater, in the language of the times it was written

    Read the threads, ask questions, keep an open mind.

    (edited for mangled sentence, sorry for typos, time limited)

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • gumby
    gumby

    Seeker: You said:"Aren't you tired of living in the world of "grumpy old gods?" Don't be worried that your family will expand their thinking by coming to this website, be concerned that you seem to be stuck in the same old place.
    Thanks for your observation but you have some things out of line
    1. I dont view God as Grumpy nor do I believe in (god's)
    2. I don't fear my family will come to this site...I hope they do!
    Coming to this site has not changed my beliefs nor will it necessarily change theirs. It could. If it does then they have seen things another way. I trust they will evaluate things before they do.
    Whichever way any of us turn...my belief is God knows hearts. If many here FIRMLY believe the way they do then they will be judged on their honesty. That goes for jews, muslims, whoever.
    I can't believe a loving God would do away with anyone who honestly believes they are doing/believing the way they truly feel is right.

  • teenyuck
    teenyuck

    DB-I read the same essay...it was very thoughtful and it mirrored my thoughts. I questioned the JW's and a "God" who would allow such pain and suffering. Especially to me at the time. I was 5 years old, told I was getting fat and Armageddon was on its way. I thought for sure a kind "God" would make me thin and likeable if I just went out in service. Then I would be naked in Paradise.

    I realized I was wrong by about 9 years old. I never believed in what I was told. I only did it to make my mother stop yelling. I got out as soon as I could, age 18. I have not believed in "God" for a long time.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    If many here FIRMLY believe the way they do then they will be judged on their honesty. That goes for jews, muslims, whoever.
    I can't believe a loving God would do away with anyone who honestly believes they are doing/believing the way they truly feel is right.

    So no matter what, somebody has got to do some judging dammit! ?

    And what, kind sir, do you think will be the case if it turns out that honesty, in the nature vs nurture debate, is influence by nature as much or more than nurture? IOW, what if the degree of honesty that a person exhibits, by and large, and even to themselves, is something that they are born with?

    I guess He/She/It/They can judge on a curve, no?

    Im'a be a frickin' Papist with a John Paul mask. The Real Slim Sixy

  • Tina
    Tina

    hi gumby,
    I had severe doubts of the existence of a diety while still a JW.
    That was one of the factors that caused so much internal turmoil for me. As a voracious reader I had encountered too many facts and ideas that told me otherwise.
    Going back to college expanding my research,being able to openly discuss issues confirmed what had always troubled me . And with more thought and study led me to the conclusion I have now.

    Especially womens historical issues regarding male supremacy and patriarchy. I began to learn the bible was simply literature.Nothing sacred about it. The myth of Adam and Eve was nothing more than metaphor for birth death and re-birth(just one example) and that the hebrew tribal godlet yhwh was nothing more than the paternalistic,patriarchal prototype to monotheistic religions.
    The sciences were revealing as well.......

    I began to realize not only I,but no one else could make a case for gods existence. That the only arguements were coming from closed minded rigid fundamentalists who ignored,denied and dismissed the data from just about every discipline around.
    So I was a humanist before I came to these boards. And the knowledge shared by the really brilliant people here has expanded my views even more. They have led me down paths of study I may have missed . This thru reading the threads on evolution,what I see as socio-cultural issues,pscy issues,etc.
    Others experiences and knowledge can only enhance yours,if you keep an open mind. Tina

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

  • Seeker4
    Seeker4

    SixofNine,

    I was sort of chuckling at Gumby's "judging" comment myself. That's pretty much exactly what I meant by the "grumpy gods" comment, Gumby. It's still all that same ancient superstition of seeing God as the bearded old judge on the throne. And I threw in the plural because there are all sorts of gods worshipped out there, it's just that you only believe in one of them. Your an atheist as far as the rest are concerned.

    You know Gumby, there are other ways of seeing God that are probably much healthier than seeing him in the role of judge. Try friend. Mentor. Brother. Break away from those old metaphors like judge, father and king. You'll be surprised at the results.

    Abaddon - love your stuff.
    S4

  • Joseph Joachim
    Joseph Joachim

    My reason for asking is i'm bothered that if my family ever leave the borg.....will they too not believe anymore?

    If your family ever leave the borg, one of two things will happen: either they will start using their brains or they will go on as brainded as before. All ex-JW who have turned into fundamentalist christians are in the second category. In the first category I know many atheists, agnostics, deists (like me) and christians, many of whom have never been JW. So I think this board has no bearance on that. And I also think that people move from one category to another many times in their lives (I've switched from deism to agnosticism and back many times, and some days I even lean towards atheism).

    In any case, whatever happens will be their decision, not yours. When you set a bird free, it is the bird that choses where it will fly.

  • NameWithheld
    NameWithheld

    Answer: Before I came here.

    For those that feel the need to believe in a god/creator because the universe is so complex, etc - where did god come from? And no to that tired old argument of 'he just was' or 'he's always been' - I don't buy that one. So SOMEWHOW, somewhere, SOMETHING was the first thing in existance ... how to explain that? I have NO clue. Doesn't really matter in day to day life though, fact is we're here and I see no evidence that a higher power has any influence in man's activities.

    And I too kind of resent those who claim that people who do not beleive there is a god, or a god(s) that influence man, "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as if this beleif automatically makes people immoral/bad. Just because we don't fear punishment from some big bad sky daddy doesn't mean we use that as an excuse to commit wrong. People do 'wrong' things regardless of their beleifs.

  • DB
    DB

    Puffsrule, glad you read the essay. When she mentioned "freedom from religion" I agreed that she has every right to enjoy such. Also, I was not at all surprised that she was turned off to the thought of a destructive god even at a young age. Her thought about the clergyman pointing to all sitting at church and saying "You are all sinners!" while she knew she had done nothing wrong also struck a cord with me.

    I am not an agnostic or atheist, but on the otherhand I can respect and understand those who are. Personally, I seldom pray at all, though I am an active jw. Just something odd about talking to an invisible guy, I guess.

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