now when can we go have a beer and some laughs!!........................thanks............oompa
May our beers be frothy and frosty
Cheers!
"Draw close to God, and he will"....never speak to you.....
by oompa 74 Replies latest watchtower bible
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gymbob
Rob~
I would just like an answer to my question....what do you mean about the centered stillness of my being? How is it you know about it? Is it spoken about in the bible? Gymbob
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gymbob
P.S. Can I have a beer with you guys too??
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oompa
Gymbob....i would be honored for you to join the beerfest...but we need a fourth for some good Texas Holdem.......oompa
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peacefulpete
All this talk of either being sad/lonely/bitter/stressed OR accepting the existance of a deity. Sadness is the result of discomfort whether real or exaggerated. We can to some extent save ourselves discomfort by making good decisions and being selective in what we fixate about. Simply put there are happy believers and atheists, as well as unhappy believers and atheists. IMO the greatest difficulty for believers acepting the nonreality of their deity is the loss of a social icon. Because belief in a deity is actually bound up with very real personal relationships, the deity embodies the devotion and loyalties felt for friends and family but projected upon it. The deity's person itself is a concretion/personification of these relationships or relational ideals. Everyone's perspective of the deity is unique due to the making of the deity in the image of themselves and people they admire or feel close to. The doubting believer therefore feels they have betrayed something, something beautiful. It's not really the deity they feel loss for, it's the cherished, noble and loving characteristics that the deity embodies. I think that is why believers always insist that atheists must be immoral or untrustworthy people when statistically that is just not true, they just don't feel the need for the mascot.
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Awakened at Gilead
And if you've been saying or writing nasty things about God, you might want to put a whammie on that and lay off for awhile. Remember the Word says...
"Do not quench the Spirit." - 1 Thess. 5:19
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God..." - Eph. 4:30
If you're badmouthing God, it's not likely He's going to be in the mood to respond.I guess this explains alot. Maybe that's why Baal didn't respond to Elijah, since Elijah was badmouthing him and calling him constipated?
Personally, I quite enjoy bad-mouthing God. Especially since he isn't man enough to respond
Oomps, you know I'm not a closet fan of yours... how about including me in that beerfest?
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abbagail
Awww shucks, Oompa... you sound like a lost soul who needs a hug... hope your wife takes care of that. ;-) wink.
You're welcome for the post, sorry it didn't help much.
I know you analytical types love to rip the Word apart (smile). I never had quite your problem of totally dismissing the written Word altogether, but I did go through a distressing time over all the translations, to the point I didn't even want to read any of them, because I would read articles that, "This one is bad, That one is bad, etc. etc." It finally got to the point that I was downright angry AND frustrated. So one day I went to the bookshelf and grabbed every one of the Bible versions I had, even those big heavy hardback suckers I had from my WT days (Jerusalem Bible, St. Joseph's Catholic Edition -- yes WT used to sell that one, too! -- and the big blue Steven T. Byington one, plus others I accumulated since then) and I stood them all up on the desk. I was mad. I was going to "have it out with God" about all this Bible translations business.
So I then sat in the desk chair, and began poking all those Bibles one at a time with my index finger, while at the same time basically griping to God out loud, "They say THIS ONE has an agenda... and THAT ONE has an agenda... and THIS ONE here has an agenda...." and on down the line until they were all knocked over like dominoes on the top of the desk... ;-) But I wasn't laughing, I was FRUSTRATED supreme, and I began crying and asking God, "So WHAT are we supposed to do down here? Which one is OK?" etc. etc. and I was so exhausted from crying I just sat there and put my head down on the desk, being quiet (like I described earlier, even though I had NOT PLANNED THIS at all... it was my first time actually).... and I wasn't really expecting an answer right then -- I guess He was waiting for me to SHUT UP, ha -- but after a few minutes it came, LOUD AND CLEAR, the Lord spoke from the inside out, from the "Inner Man"-out, and it was a REAL SENTENCE... not just a "feeling," but words that came out of my solar plexus, if you will... He said clear as a bell...
"THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN CUT THROUGH AGENDAS."
Immediately I bolted up straight and was like, OH MY GOD! OF COURSE! That's IT!!!!! Why didn't I think of that???? THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!
Seven little words.. but what a world of difference!
When He talks, you will hear it, and you will KNOW it came from nowhere else but Him. Promise!
From that day on I don't worry about Bible translations. Because GOD CAN USE ANY OF THEM to get His Truth to ANYBODY, no matter how "bad off" the particular translation might be (even like the Message Bible, bleeeh!), and no matter how many "translation errors" any translation might contain, God can use it. He uses imperfect men, doesn't he? So why not imperfect translations?
I mean, think about it. In Africa and places like that, I've heard heart wrenching testimonies of people who walk 15 days one way to get their hands on a Bible. And what if only Message Bibles had been shipped to that area that day? Is God going to "diss" those people because they ended up with a crappy translation? Is He not capable of letting them see truth IN SPITE of what frail, imperfect, or even WICKED men might do to translations? No Way!
Heck, I still use the NWT sometimes, esp. Proverbs and other verses that I LOVED when I first learned them. Is God going to hate me for that? I loved those Proverbs so much when I first learned them all, and if you compare, they really say about the same as other versions.
I also go back and forth between KJV and NKJV, both NT's based on the Received Text, and the KJV OT - -Masoretic Text, and most of NKJV-OT the same with some variation.
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You said, " If God wanted to communicate to man, he would have used the FINGER OF GOD and written to man in a way that no one could ever doubt that the words were indeed from God."
May I propose to you that that is what the Holy Spirit is for? ;-) See above example. His "job title" is TEACHER, Comforter, and GUIDE... so give Him a "job" FOR YOU... ask again and EXPECT to receive this time... ;-)
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"2.Your second point requires faith, and I am low on that and not sure how to get it back."
Hmmm, well......... is there a doctor in the house? Surgical instruments? We have to open up this man and reinsert some FAITH. ;-)
Start SMALL. Not sure what things you have asked for... Big? Little?
Another idea, since you are on "shaky ground" -- Pick out ONE THING you want to know. Don't ask anything else until you get an answer to this ONE thing. It's like learning to ride a tricycle as a kid... take it one step at a time....
The WT basically "stole" the Holy Spirit from us as JWs, so we never really got much, if any, experience or practice with how He works, so give Him a chance.
And don't feel too bad about losing faith. Happens every day... Life stinks. You think Jesus didn't lose some faith in the Garden or on the cross? He as much as said so! Being in the flesh is a real drag!
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If you have Bible doubts, be honest, tell Him so. Tell him, "Lord, I am extremely estranged from you, but I would like not to be. I feel lost, no anchor, no faith, losing hope, feel like I can't trust any Bible versions... (or whatever else you feel)." Say, "Will you please SHOW ME THE WAY..."
And if you're up for it, go ahead and start fresh, as if you just found a "real" Christian tract in the post office or somewhere. Say the sinner's prayer, start over, admit you are a sinner, in need of a Savior, cannot save yourself through works or any good deeds whatsoever, or no amount of book reading or trying to figure things out on your own; tell Him the Watchtower screwed up your mind, your motivation, you desire to seek Him (or whatever it was that got you in that frame of mind); if you're mad at Him for not answering your years of prayers, tell Him so, he knows anyway ;-) Tell Him you feel very hurt over that, but that you want Him to be your friend again, and you would like to accept the FREE GIFT of salvation via the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross, and that he was buried, and rose again the third day, and that he ALREADY PAID for **ALL** your sins--- PAST -- PRESENT -- FUTURE." <<something the WT never told us! they want you to remain forever UNSURE about your salvation, whether you will ever make it or not, be worthy enough or not, etc. "But for those who are in Christ, there is now NO CONDEMNATION..." - Roms. 8:1. Once you are His, you are eternally secure (we may lose rewards if we backslide, etc., but we cannot lose our salvation). -- Ask Him to be your Savior and become Lord of your life, and turn your life over to Him. In Jesus' Name, Amen.
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Don't expect the sky to fall. It is a FAITH thing. The first Christian tract I ever found (not a JW tract) back in the 1970s, said if I said the sinner's prayer, I would become a "new creation." Sometimes tracts are too short to explain, but that sent me off thinking if I said the prayer, I would immediately change and become a different person. lol. Not so. So I was disappointed, felt rejected actually, because I didn't even understand what it meant. I made up my own ideas of what it meant. But being saved IS instant, but SANCTIFICATION takes TIME, the entire time you will be alive or until He comes for us, the Lord will be working on sanctifying you to His image ("...being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ..." - Phil. 1:6). <<< Side Note: Notice there is a "Day of Jesus Christ" vs. the "Day of the LORD." Two different "days." The first is when the Lord comes in the air to call up his Saints/Body/Bride, the latter is more commonly referred to as Armageddon. So which do you want to be part of? ;-)
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Nobody becomes "perfect" as long as we are still in our UNredeemed BODIES. Our spirit is redeemed at the instant of salvation (see above), but not our flesh, not yet, not until the Lord "catches us away" to be with Him forever (1 Thess. 4:16,17; 1 Cor. 15:42-58... we will have a body like His, a spirit/flesh-combo, made of flesh and bone, but not blood, incorruptible, immortal).
To try to put it more simply... when we are saved, we are saved POSITIONALLY in Christ. We are:
1. Crucified -- with him in his death, we are no longer our own, we belong to Him
2. Buried -- with him as far as our old Adamic sin nature (spiritually wise)
3. Raised -- with him to our new free-from-condemnation-for-sin (spiritually wise)
4. Ascended -- with him to the heavenlies (we are sealed for that, at salvation, but it will take place in the future)
5. Seated -- with him at the right hand of God (our place there is set at time of salvation, it cannot be removed)
All of that takes place POSITIONALLY at the time of Salvation.
These are called the Positional Truths.
Visit this page, love how they showed this: http://www.withchrist.org/
Once inside -- love that too! -- read this article, excellent: The New Birth Explained: http://withChrist.org/MJS/newbirth.htm
Sure wish I'd known these things in 1970s! Would have saved me 11 years in the WT!
But then I wouldn't be here talking to you now, would I?
;-)
All things work together for the good of those who love God and who are called according to His purpose...
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(That was just some ideas from what you have written... but I'm sure you have plenty of your OWN thoughts and feelings... Type or write them out in a prayer if you like. He CAN READ, too, you know. ;-)
I heard one guy say he types out his prayers every morning at his computer during his devotion time because it is easier that way for him to keep track of when/how God answers them. I liked that idea, too. ;-)
Other people keep Prayer Journals for the same purpose... "This date I asked this.. And God answered this way on this date..." etc. (I never could keep up with those, I have started them but I am too scattered brained. Probably all the more I SHOULD use one. ;-/ ) The purpose is so you can go back and relive how God has helped you/replied/answered. It builds our faith and love for Him, not just so we can keep tabs on God to give him a "grade" on how He's doing. ;-)
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And if you want an extra pound of help, call a prayer line! Yes, something totally foreign to JWs. But why not? It really DOES help to have others praying for you. I like the folks at Bob Rodgers church/Evangel World Prayer Center. You can call or write them a prayer request online. They will pray over it for 30 days every day --OR-- until you get an answer! I like that! I really like Bob Rodgers!
From their site:
http://www.worldprayercenter.org/index.php?option=com_facileforms&Itemid=72
[...]
Pastor Rodgers' commitment is to pray for each prayer request for 30 days and to place them in the prayer chapel, without your contact information, to be prayed for on a continual basis until the Lord answers your prayers. We will not make your information available to anyone else. Our prayer is that the Lord richly bless you and meet every need according to His riches in Glory through Christ Jesus.
[...]
If you're in dire straits, you can call and talk to them, and/or leave a message after hours for prayer request: 1-502-962-9650 (I had that in my cell, haven't needed to call them lately, but I did last time was in January when the apt. corporate owners were haggling me for several months about the lease, because the local mgr. said I could do a 6 month lease since I was moving in the Spring, but the corp. guys up in NJ were trying to force me to sign a year lease, etc. Long Story, but it was coming down to the nitty gritty and I called Bob Rodgers' prayer line after hours and left a frantic message as I thought, "What, am I going to have to get a lawyer over these corp. guys not holding up what the local mgr said?" etc. etc. That was early early early one Friday, during the night actually, that I left them the message on their voicemail. And on Monday, the local mgr. just showed up at my door, unannounced and unexpected, and she said, "Can we PLEASE take care of this between us? The corp guys said they will do whatever you want...!" I was AGHAST! WOW! Talk about getting FAST answers to prayers! I said, You Betcha, I will be leaving end of April, so that is a 4-month lease, but at the 12-month price! She agreed to it all, got the OK from the big guys, did the papers, came back 2 hours later and ALL WAS WELL. I called my Mother, and she was flabberghasted. I told her I called a prayer line, and God came to the rescue JUST IN THE KNICK OF TIME. (He has a habit of doing things at the last minute... He likes for EVERYBODY TO KNOW that NOBODY ELSE could have fixed the problem but Him. That's what Praise is all about! ;-)
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Anyway, I hope the Bob Rodgers' phone # still works if you need it. Or start collecting your own prayer line #'s from ministries you may find you like and appreciate, or from a sermon on TV you especially like, etc. I keep several in my cell. Another great guy is DJ Meyer of Last Trumpet Ministries, he's a pastor of Truth Tabernacle up in Michigan. They also say...
Prayer Requests
Remember to send your prayer requests as they will be individually taken to the throne of God by our prayer teams.
Email: [email protected]
Newsletters: http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/
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And when the Lord answers you, be sure to send a "thank you" email to those who prayed for/with you for your needs... they call it a "Praise Report." ;-)
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Oompa said:
"I only believe that there had to be a designer...a creator of all this incredible world and universe."
Well, my friend, you are at least ONE BIG STEP WAY AHEAD of several million, if not several billion people on the planet!
Don't you feel better already? ;-)
Seeeeeeeeeeeee, you haven't lost ALL of your faith, afterall!
And that means you are none too dense either, since God says it is **clearly evident** from the world's creation onward that He is visible from the things He made.... ;-)
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Oompa:
"Since I am spoken about here in James as a doubter, he makes it very clear that i will not receive anything from God:
(James1:6-8)6 But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah;8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways."
Yeah, but you gotta start somewhere buddy!
I've heard ooodles of testimonies where people who had no idea if God even existed, and without a Christian tract or anything, they would merely say, "Jesus, if you really exist, if you are really out there, please show me..." -- or "... please help me..." and they have been answered.
Maybe your brains are getting in the way? ;-)
I have no idea if this is accurate... but it seems maybe you dug yourself in a hole... maybe for a time you WANTED NOT to believe, so you kept on at it, until you got yourself in a hole, sort of painted yourself in a corner.
Either way, tell the Lord you desperately need His mercy and grace because you are just flat out feeling lost and corn-fused, and you are sick to death of it, and you really really really need some guidance el pronto before your heart of hearts just gives out completely in despair. (IF that's how you feel, of course... not trying to put words in your mouth or heart).
But then I would suggest you may want to stop looking for reasons NOT TO BELIEVE, and switch gears, do a 180-degrees turn around on that frame of mind, and go in the Opposite Direction and look for reasons TO BELIEVE.
The thing about the Lord, he is a Gentleman, and he will not impose himself on anyone, nor on your free will to choose your own belief system. If you do NOT want to believe, then he won't try to make you either.
But if you WANT to believe, then ask for help -- yes, I know, ask AGAIN!!! -- and I say get those 30-days-or-more prayer warriors on your side for starters, as a boost... they can get results on your behalf if you are stuck in the corner of doubt and indecision... but be honest with them of where you are at, lest how can they pray accurately on your behalf?
No sense beating around the bush at this late date... ;-)
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Oompa:
"And I fill another niche in the Bible: (2Thessalonians3:2) . . .for faith is not a possession of all people. . ."
Ehhh, only if you don't want it to be your possession.
Besides, you took that out of context. Read the whole thing...
2 Thessalonians 3:1: "Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may run [swiftly] and be glorified, just as [it is] with you, 2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for not all have faith."
Paul is talking about being delivered from UNREASONABLE and WICKED MEN who do not have faith. Are you unreasonable and wicked? I don't think so, or you wouldn't even be agonizing over these things. ;-) So that settles that! ;-)
I propose God HAS given you a "MEASURE OF FAITH" (Rom. 12:3) but it is up to us to "grow it" by growing in getting to know Him personally, exercising it, stretching it, expanding it, etc.
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Oompa said...
[3. Practice hearing..] "now this intrigued me. I envision myself deep underground in a hollowed out salt mine. There are no sounds at all. So I sit there quietly and practice hearing. After months of this I am now not even sure if I can hear anymore or what hearing is....because unless a sound is made you CAN"T hear anything. So clap my hands once every few months jst to remind myself what hearing is. We need SOUNDS to practice hearing don't we?"
Ha! Your picture-story cracked me up. Can a blind man know he is blind? lol. Can a deaf man know he is deaf?
Maybe "practice" wasn't the right word. How about, just be "available to hear" -- be "aware that you CAN hear"... For instance, you might do a little Bible reading, say/or write out a prayer or two expressing what you are feeling frustrated over at that very instance, and now you don't want to just sit in the salt mine and wait. So tell the Lord, I'm going to go mow the lawn as it is relaxing to me (or take a walk, ride bike, or whatever is relaxing emotionally), and ask him to COME ALONG WITH YOU AS YOU GO, as you are STILL listening. Sometimes He'll just answer a little bit LATER after you think He has totally forgotten you.
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Oompa said...
"4. Yes...I am very anlytical. The logical Spock was my hero on Star Trek. This is probably why is started having doubts about my JW religion starting at 19, and they increased over the years until I proved to myself it was also a false religion."
Well, you did GOOD on that one. WT is a false religion on the basic doctrines of Christianity (Deity of Christ, Triune God, heavenly hope for believers, etc. etc.)
But just FORGET about "religions" in general. Your "new" pursuit -- should you decide to accept it -- is not to figure out "religions," but to seek and find a personal intimacy with Christ.
Follow Paul's example... After the Lord appeared to him (can you be any worse than he was? ;-) , and after Paul was led on to Damascus, Ananias came to him, etc. etc. Paul stuck around for a short while, but after that he went into the Arabian desert for three years and spent that time w/the Lord.
Many people when they get saved, they don't go run and join a church, but they just spend a year or so in the Bible and let the Lord show them what He wants for them, the way the Lord showed Paul once he quit trying to convert the Jews immediately, which only got him in trouble. lol.
I heard one may say he read the Bible 25 times in his first year w/the Lord. I was like, WOW. I don't think I could even pull that off.
I wish I had known that when I first got saved, though... I never would have gone and sought out the JWs who had given me that Bible two years earlier... I didn't know it was OKAY to NOT go join a religion.
Once you have a clear understanding of your position in Christ, and at the least a general idea of what he would like for your life, THEN it is a good thing to fellowship with like minded believers. But that could be anything from a Home church to a Mega church. Ask him to show you WHERE in his entire Body of Christians he wants to set you. And then go with the flow... (the flow meaning learning to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit).
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Oompa said...
"And Abbagail...thank you for your prayers...really. Because I am pretty sure God has not listened to my prayers....thousands of them...nor has he ever answered one.....so if one of yours gets through and gets the job done for me....that would be really nice.....................................................oompa"
That breaks my heart... can't for the life of me figure out what the problem is... I KNOW He answers prayers, and it's not really like Him to ignore those who ask/seek of Him. All I can figure is there might be something in the way... like maybe you keep writing and saying he won't answer...
Try this: For ONE WEEK, or better, ONE MONTH -- NEVER SAY IT AGAIN, in word or print. Not here, not at home, not anywhere.
Instead, say this every time your brain wants to say the opposite, instead say this:
"I KNOW THAT YOU ALWAYS HEAR ME..." (compare John 11:42).
And say it out loud. Shout if you have to. Say it. Believe it. Even if that's all you can muster for now.
(I think you have convinced yourself for so long that He won't... that painted-corner again... let's get you out of that dang corner, you little hard-headed booger! ... ;-)
And don't cuss Him out if He waits to see if you are sincere and serious this time around... ;-)
And yes, between me, and if you call in the troops -- get a whole crew of prayer warriors on your side as well -- the gates of hell cannot prevail over our Oompa at JWD.... ;-)
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BTW, I like how you answer A-B-C-D, 1-2-3-4. ;-)
Very organized and systematic.
I like that, too!
Believe it or not, God CAN use analytical people... (oh no, here comes another story from me...)
There is a preacher on the tube, I like him because he is very forthright, downright bombastic if you will, doesn't beat around the bush, etc. And from that I always figured, "I bet he's an organized freak, perfectionistic as well... detailed...." etc. I never knew for sure until I heard his wife give a testimony, lol. It went like this...
For years she prayed and complained to the Lord, "Please CHANGE him. Why does he HAVE to be THAT way. Make him more mild, less rigid, more relaxed, more easy going..." etc. etc. On and on she prayed year after year to no avail.
Finally she said the Lord spoke to her and said, "QUIT asking me to CHANGE him. I need him and can use him Just the way He is!"
Oh boy, she said she shut up in a hurry. lol.
For all you know, God can use your analytical brain to debate with other analytical brains. I mean, who else?
But first you have to come back to His side of the fence. ;-)
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Do you consider yourself agnostic by now?
You might like this: The Impossibility of Agnosticism:
http://withchrist.org/Impossibility%20of%20Agnosticism.pdf
It's from one of the sites I already mentioned further above (in the "positional truths" section).
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OK, novel comes to an end.
Hope something/anything helps!
"I K-N-O-W THAT YOU A-L-W-A-Y-S HEAR ME!"
And don't you forget it!
;-)
Peace and Blessings, Mr. O.
/ag -
Awakened at Gilead
And don't cuss Him out if He waits to see if you are sincere and serious this time around... ;-)
I think he can hear us even if we cuss him out. See my above post...
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abbagail
ha, Awakened...
"Personally, I quite enjoy bad-mouthing God. Especially since he isn't man enough to respond."
So you, too, eh?
He doesn't respond because he's turning the other cheek.
Even so...
"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him..." - Matt. 12:32.
I don't think you're going to shake him up too bad over it.
But carry on if it tickles your fancy! -
Awakened at Gilead
So you, too, eh?
Yep, me too!
He doesn't respond because he's turning the other cheek.
Which one, the left butt cheek or the right butt cheek?
I'd be happy to spank the other cheek if he would reveal himself to me
But carry on if it tickles your fancy!
OK, I will. Screw Zues, Screw Mithras, Screw Horus, Screw Baal, Screw [insert name of a god here].... (I'm watching my language, I might use a harsher word in reality).
We atheists love you too, AbbaGail!