by oompa 74 Replies latest watchtower bible
When my daughter was 8 yrs old she asked a sister in the KH, " why doesn't God talk to us anymore?" The sister said because we hurt his feelings.
LOL I think God needs to build a bridge and get over it. Thousands of years of the silent treament. What relationship can last through that/
Abbagail, I can sure tell you care, and yes I consider myself Agnostic since I believe there had to be a creator, but have no clue if he is still around, why he did things, what he is going to do...what his will is. You said pray for one thing. Now you know.....in EVERY prayer I say, which is only at dinner for my wife, I always end it..."and please help me to come to know you and your will." That is pretty darn specific and simple....and at one time I thought I knew him and his will for mankind.
Abbagail: He uses imperfect men, doesn't he? So why not imperfect translations?
This is gonna be a toughie for you girl...as you have already explained why he would not use or allow imperfect translations...and you have already admitted that is all we have...in your first post you said at the very beginning:
"The SON = The WORD, written, spoken, and Alive as a Person."
Now if i am not mistaken....Jesus..the son and/or God is flawless, no corruption in them, perfect...and you used and = sign when you said he was equal to the WORD. So how can it be if the Bible is actually the Word of God that it is not as perfect as the SON if they are =???.......and the reason he uses imperfect men is obvious if he actually did or does....that's all there is unless you can show me the perfect men!
Abbagail: Ha! Your picture-story cracked me up. Can a blind man know he is blind? lol. Can a deaf man know he is deaf?
Yes, a blind man can know he is blind as soon as his sight is repaird and sees for the first time....it happens often. Yes, a deaf man can know he was deaf in the same manner, but if the deaf man gets his hearing fixed, and God never speaks to him...he may still think he is deaf is that is the only noise available. I still say that after praying several times a day for over 40 years, and getting no response...it should make me and you cry!! But thanks for all the info and input...i will look into some of your material suggestions.......oomps
by the way....you should be a minister in your own church!!....your good girl!
Oompa. In what way do you want God to speak to you? What does it mean to you to "draw close" to him?
He is already close to you, you just don't want to hear him right now. Faith ebbs and flows for me too. Maybe this inability of yours is a long term lesson in your own course.
Sometimes we don't know how to listen. I think he speaks in everything, and in an internal voice that we hear if only we can still the noise of our own thoughts.
BTS
I would just like an answer to my question....what do you mean about the centered stillness of my being? How is it you know about it? Is it spoken about in the bible? Gymbob
Gym, didn't you get my pm?
And yes the centered stillness is hinted at in the Bible:
21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within [ a ] you."
If you want to talk more, answer my pm, dangit!
And sure, let's have a beer. It'll be a hoot.
And if you've been saying or writing nasty things about God, you might want to put a whammie on that and lay off for awhile. Remember the Word says...
"Do not quench the Spirit." - 1 Thess. 5:19
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God..." - Eph. 4:30
If you're badmouthing God, it's not likely He's going to be in the mood to respond.
I missed the above quote, it was probably in a longer post than I care to read, but I caught it on Awakened@Gilead's post and wish to address it.
In Judaism, unlike Christianity, angry prayer at God is acceptable and encouraged.
Here's a few good ones:
"I was a shadow. I had a different maker, and he in his mercy has left nothing in me to die"
You are the first, and You remain the last. If You're not able to judge between plea and plea, between blood and blood, listen to my heart, hardened in judgment, see my plight: Michael, Gabriel, Your angel collaborators, stand and admit that You said: Let us make Man and they said amen.
If God was not full of mercy, mercy would have been in the world, not just in Him. I, who plucked the flowers in the hills and looked down into all the valleys, I who brought corpses down from the hills, can tell you that the world is empty of mercy. I, who was King of Salt at the seashore, who stood without a decision at my window, who counted the steps of angels, whose heart lifted weights of anguish in the horrible contests. I, who use only a small part of the words in the dictionary. I, who must decipher riddles I don't want to decipher, know that if not for the God-full-of-mercy there would be mercy in the world, Not just in Him.
ShipBurner:Oompa. In what way do you want God to speak to you? What does it mean to you to "draw close" to him?
He is already close to you, you just don't want to hear him right now.
Actually Ship, I really would like to hear him RIGHT NOW. This loss of faith thingy just SUCKS!.....as to him speaking to me... I will take just a warm feeling inside that lets me know he cares or some kind of spiritual connection...I'll take some event in my life that can only be an answer from God to a prayer......I'll take an image on a piece of burnt toast or a Jesus potato chip....I would like him to help me understand things he did in the OT...very violent things...like killing 70 thousand innocent people: (2Samuel24:10)10 And David’s heart began to beat him after he had so numbered the people. Consequently David said to Jehovah: "I have sinned very much in what I have done. And now, Jehovah, let your servant’s error pass by, please; for I have acted very foolishly." (1Chronicles21:14)14 Then Jehovah gave a pestilence in Israel, so that out of Israel seventy thousand persons fell. . .
helping me understand the scriptures that have always troubled me would be a great way for him to speak to me, especially other scriptures that really trouble me, like this one that practically encourages young (unengaged virgins) to be raped: (Deuteronomy22:28-29)28 "In case a man finds a girl, a virgin who has not been engaged, and he actually seizes her and lies down with her, and they have been found out, 29 the man who lay down with her must also give the girl’s father fifty silver shekels, and she will become his wife due to the fact that he humiliated her. He will not be allowed to divorce her all his days.---------so the little girl gets to marry her rapist???
I think Jehovah speaking to me in some way to help me understand how would do or allow these things would be very helpful, in fact necessary, for me to be able to draw close to him....I have dozens of other very strange and odd scriptures if you want them...Like a parent STONING their own son!?!!?!....nice law.
If I could first know and understand him better then maybe I could draw close to him, maybe then he could become some kind of spiritual friend/father...since we are his children........oompa
Good description, BTS, the ebb and flow.
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Thanks oomp... for the specific prayer you pray daily with your wife. I think it is perfect and sweet. And sounds sincere, too.
And, yah, ha, maybe I'll be a preacheress someday, lol.
(I'm better on paper than in person, though... can't think so fast on my feet as in those JW door knocking days of long ago).
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I sense your frustration... I think you just want to know the Bible is perfect.
Well, it was when Moses-Jeremiah-David-Matthew-Mark, etc.,, et al, wrote it, as they were inspired by Holy Spirit.
As for Jesus being the Word, that is one of His names, THE WORD OF GOD (Rev. 19, I think, too tired to look for references now). So he is The Communicator with mankind, always has been from the Beginning (John 1:1), even the author behind the original scriptures/manuscripts, including all the prophecies about Himself.
I never said current Bibles are flawless, but HE CAN MAKE THEM FLAWLESS to the one reading them via the Holy Spirit. In other words, the Word of God (Jesus) can use any man-translated-handed-down manuscript-to-modern Bible and still help the sincere hearted see the Truth in it ABOUT HIM, no matter what men, wicked, naive, or otherwise, have done to it.
Only the original manuscripts were inerrant. That is what most churches believe, and so do I. Check some "Statements of Faith" on church websites.
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"...unless you can show me the perfect men!"
Ha, no, sorry hon, no perfect men that I've ever seen! Though some good-lookers can "come close" to "looking" that way. ;)
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"... you have already explained why he would not use or allow imperfect translations..."
I don't think I ever said it in those words exactly. That is your take on what I said, but again, I sense your aggravation over the issue. You remind me of myself when I want something to be JUST SO, and when other people just don't do THINGS RIGHT. So when in one of those moods, I keep pushing the issue, breaking it down in detail, more to be a pain to whoever it was that bugged me by not doing things RIGHT in the first place, so I become "anal retentive" as the saying goes. (I just went through this recently with my sister, is why I am describing it. I'm thinking you might be feeling that same sort-of way--?? If not, then I guess it's good "therapy" for me to confess it. ;)
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BTW, I do not like that phrase I used up there, but for the life of me I can't think of another way to describe it when I'm feeling that way...
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WAIT. I've GOT IT. It's called CONTROL. It's a CONTROL issue. What do you think? Does that hit a nerve? It did with me (I have the same problem).
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But I'll try again on the subject at hand...
Yes, Jesus was/is flawless.
As "The Word of God" He authored the written Word, as it was breathed into the ORIGINAL writers by the Holy Spirit at His direction.
The = sign, yes, Jesus is equal to the WORD. It is His name, THE WORD OF GOD.
"So how can it be if the Bible is actually the Word of God that it is not as perfect as the SON if they are =???"
**My point is, FLAWS don't BOTHER a PERFECT GOD, in men or in His current- written Word (as re-translated LATER through the ages by men NOT inspired). Even so, HE CAN make a person PERFECTLY SEE/find/get the Truth ABOUT HIM from those now-imperfect-Bibles via the Holy Spirit. That's what I meant. That is the work of the Holy Spirit, from Jesus to the Holy Spirit to the person reading the Scripture. He can make them see HIM PERFECTLY as He is in the written Word, flaws and all in our 21st century.
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(Which, btw, from what I've read, there IS a concerted effort to distort the Word. Supposedly all Bible publishing houses have already awhile back been overtaken/bought out by ... shall we say, the Globalists? (If I say Illuminati, the Tin Foil Hat Haters will come screeching out). The ultimate goal is the Luciferian Bible that will be used during Mid-Trib.
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As I wrote before, Imperfect translations don't bother me anymore. I was all twisted up like you are now, several years ago. It wasn't fun so I feel for you, really.
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"Yes, a blind man can know he is blind as soon as his sight is repaird and sees for the first time....it happens often."
Awwww, now you just want to spoil the fun I was having. I was having a humorous moment w/my prior comments about the blind man. I think now you want to nit-pick me? But OK, I'll bite. Sure, people recover sight. People recover their hearing. People can also hear from God... even in a salt mine.
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"I still say that after praying several times a day for over 40 years, and getting no response...it should make me and you cry!!"
It DOES! As I said before, my heart breaks for you. I want nothing more for you than the JOY of hearing from the Lord, something Specifically Exactly Precisely JUST FOR YOU, so your faith may be restored, and your Joy and Peace restored. And that is my prayer being offered up this very moment.
"Lord, please open Bro. Oompa's eyes and heart so that His joy may be made FULL...
And if it's a Control Issue, Help Us Both."
In Jesus' Name, Amen.
/ag
Oompa. Your spiritual emergency is not unique. It has been called the "Dark night of the soul" among other names. Let me point you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul
Now, regarding your objections to what is contained in the Bible that act as a hindrance to you, you must understand that our understanding of God has grown over time, and we see this progression in Scripture. The image of God presented to some extent reflects the limited understanding of the people at that stage of humanity's spiritual development. There is an old saying that God meets man where he is at. And the people of that time were pretty bloody. Here is a another way to see it: Humans interpret God's instructions in the context of their current reality, and sometimes God's instructions lose something in the translation.
Also, I think that if the OT is presented in the proper light; the delineated rejections of God and the ensuing havoc these produce are quite enlightening. All of creation belongs to God--yet when people go against God they may invite in other agents and unintended consequences. In biblical language this gets to be called God's wrath. But the comforting thing is, because God is all good, everything that is allowed to happen brings a out a greater good over time.
I think the explanation given here is pretty good, give it a read if you like.
http://jimmyakin.typepad.com/defensor_fidei/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html
I wish you the best and Cheers,
BTS
Abbagail:
oompa:"... you have already explained why he would not use or allow imperfect translations..."
I don't think I ever said it in those words exactly. That is your take on what I said
oops!...thanks for catching that...actually i meant to say why you felt he WOULD allow all all these imperfect translations....you ackowledged your frustrations that they are all flawed, and indicated it does not matter since the Holy Spirit can overcome this problem....my point was that if Jesus is perfect and is = to the Word of God....then it should be perfect too
People can also hear from God... even in a salt mine. "
I have been sitting in the mine over 40 years girl!!....have not heard a thing yet!....I would call that pretty patient........but anyway...you have made some good points..........oompa
...like killing 70 thousand innocent people: (2Samuel24:10)10 And David’s heart began to beat him after he had so numbered the people. Consequently David said to Jehovah: "I have sinned very much in what I have done. And now, Jehovah, let your servant’s error pass by, please; for I have acted very foolishly." (1Chronicles21:14)14 Then Jehovah gave a pestilence in Israel, so that out of Israel seventy thousand persons fell. . .
Hey Oompa, have you thought about changing the translation of the Bible that you are reading? The NWT is so dead and uninspiring.
