Doctrinal ramifications of large increase in 2008 memorial partakers? (page 2)

Philippus79

There is one "trick" to keep the 144k literal:

They come up with the understanding that not all Christians in the first century were part of the 'annointed class'. Basically there we people called into the Great Crowd also in the first century. After all, not everyone had the gifts of the spirit...

Phil

wobble

What would make it really difficult to keep the 144k literal would be if all of us who are faders or 'postates turn up at the Reject Jesus Party,and PARTAKE of the bread and wine.

Problem is,could you sit through it now without barfing or screaming or both?

Love

Wobble

It would be funny to see those smartass Elders rush off out to buy more crackers and plonk 'coz they ran out!

Honesty

It's a load of BS that was contrived by an alcoholic attorney named J.F. Rutherford.

Now that time has run out on the BS more BS has to be contrived until time proves it is BS and then more BS has to be contrived until time proves it is also BS.

Seeker4

I've worked the numbers a few times over the years, and it's impossible for the 144,000 figure to be literal. What it means is that there were essentially only 100,000 or so "true" Christians from Pentecost 33 CE until the 20th Century, with the rest of the 144K showing up from 1900 until 1935 or so when the Great crowd began to be gathered. That's the gist of the WTS doctrine on the matter, and it is just completely nonsensical.

First of all, there are historical accounts of tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands of early Christians being slaughtered during those first centuries. Even allowing for huge exaggerations in the numbers, it would still be far more than 144,000.

The WTS has gotten around this by stating that many of those early Christians weren't really "true" Christians, but were part of the great apostasy and Christendom. One of the ways they show this is by referring to these people being slaughtered and how many of them were claiming supernatural events in their life, such as seeing visions as they were being killed.

So, Stephen can see a vision as he's being stoned, and he's an anointed true believer, but 30 or 50 or 70 years later the same thing proves the person is a part of Christendom??!!

Then the WTS says there were always members of the anointed alive down through the centuries until modern times, which must also run into the tens of thousands, at least.

Their taking the 144,000 figure as literal has long been a joke, and these bouncing number of partakers over the years is a thorn in their flesh. I used to keep a running tally on a card listing the number of partakers each year when I was a JW. This number is of huge importance to active JWs.

What I found was that from the 60s to the 90s, the number of anointed increased 1 out of every 4 years, on average. So, 25% of the time the number of anointed goes up, though there was overall a general decline in the numbers - until it got down to around 8500.

My guess is that that figure might even be higher now if the last few years are included. But this jump of 10% has got to have them crapping their pants. It flies in the face of all the WTS theology.

They will mark it up to weak and mentally ill ones partaking due to the May 2007 WT QFR quoted above, but it's still a serious problem for them. The literal 144,000 has been a huge weak spot in Witness doctrine for a long time, starting with the fact of taking the number literally while explaining everything else around it as symbolic.

This jump in anointed is a serious issue. Watch for a WT article, very likely a study one, about examing your claim if you have started partaking.

S4

Seeker4

I just found a bunch of interesting actual figures on some other threads and at the JW Facts site.

The lowest number of partakers ever was 8524 in 2005.

The number has gone up every year since then. In fact, from 1991 to 2008, the number of partakers has gone up 9 TIMES in 17 years, or over 50% of the time. Today, the number of partakers is a whopping 17% more than three years ago, the lowest figure!

The number of partakers this year, 9986, is the most since 1977, the last time it was over 10,000. So, despite the claim that the number of anointed is declining, there are more partakers now than there were 30 years ago!

This has got to be embarrassing. Having taught that the 1914 generation should be dying out in droves as well as all of those claiming to be anointed, the exact opposite is happening. Against all reason, the number is jumping, and not just slightly or occasionally as has been true in the past, but in percentages greater than at any time in the modern history of the WTS, and this for two decades now.

The WTS tries to handle that by distancing itself from the 1935 date in 2007, only to have it come back and bite then in the ass worse than ever in 2008.

Can anyone say SNAFU?

S4

still_in74

Expect a watchtower study to be inclusive of the thought that some of these partakers are not genuine (apostates? or mentally unstable) and attempts have people "rethink" think their anointed status.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a psychological "out" in attempt to reduce guilt. Something along the lines of Jah' forgives

good point about the "out"

i was told by one sister that she heard from this "missionary who gave a talk in her KH" told someone else over dinner (or some crazy drawn out connection like this) that the reason the numbers of annointed are increasing is because of all the growth in countries like mexico and africa where they dont understand properly and partake because thats what they have always done (in catholicism)

hello? did these people not go over the "questions" with 3 elders to make sure they understand? maybe then the numbers are increasing becuase the elders are slacking? or maybe because this religion is a joke? ya - I choose that one..........

Seeker4

Yeah, I've heard that before. Those poor, ignorant folks in 3rd world countries just can't seem to grasp the deep intellectual aspects of The Truth - such as don't eat the bread and drink the wine!

One year when there was a big jump they attributed it to the fact that the Iron Curtain had come down and now we had all the figures from the East European countries.

Another time there was a big jump a COs wife told me that it seemed every congregation had a middle aged sister who hit menopause and suddenly decided she was anointed. It was funny, because that was true in my own congregation at the time. As elders, we kindly visited her to talk her out of partaking, but she's still at it, as far as I know!

It couldn't possibly be that the WTS has an insane doctrine that 99.99% of it's 6 million members don't have Jesus as their mediator, that the Bible was not written for them, and that they cannot take part in the one thing Jesus commanded his followers to do until he returned? Oh yeah, and they ain't goin' to heaven, neither!

S4

still_in74

The WTS tries to handle that by distancing itself from the 1935 date in 2007, only to have it come back and bite then in the ass worse than ever in 2008.

to me bringing up this wrong light should cause people to wonder how they could have stretched a scripture to make such an application. Why did the WT "express" this in 1933 then "especially" since 1966 run with it? This interpretion is what drove the Oracles entire tenure as president.
the annointed were special, they were above the R&F, there were no new ones called, only me and my buddies you just keep listening to me and my special friends.

Why dont JW's stand back and ask - how could we (they) have made such a stupid mistake? How could my parents and grandparents spent their whole lives believing a falsehood?

logic

The whole 144,000 thing just goes to prove that the society has no idea what they are talking about. They are just changing things back and forth so fast that no one has a clue what the heck they are talking about. If anything that the society writes about made any sense then there would not have to be so much discussion about it. The last two elders that visited me did not even know there was a change. I explained the change and they said that is the way it always has been, I had to carefully read the article to them, especially where the society said theirselves that it was a change, before they finally got it. Then they just acted like it was no big deal. The jws just do not pay attention anymore and basically do not care.

Mary

I've long thought that they'll eventually have to make it a symbolic number. This is one doctrine where they could actually get away with making a change like this without too much hassle. Since the GB members do not consult with other 'annointed' ones, it would not diminish their power and authority at all over the rank and file. It would also help explain why the figures keep going up, not down and would buy them some much needed time.

I made a comment about this a couple of months ago:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/166779/3088128/post.ashx#3088128

Doctrinal ramifications of large increase in 2008 memorial partakers?

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