Blondie, can you elaborate a bit more on my questions...so he thought they literal...but were the 144k just a special group in heaven, bought from earth?...and did the early dubs think that just everone else would go to heaven too, but as lesser ones...what was so bad about that? what motive did they have for coming up with the heavenly small group, and only 144k, with the rest meant for earthly paradise?......anybody?.........thanks, oompa
Doctrinal ramifications of large increase in 2008 memorial partakers?
by yadda yadda 2 80 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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GermanXJW
I think at the time of SitS VII they also believed that the great crowd goes to heaven. However, normal reaction now would be to discourage taking from the bread and the wine. But how could they - most of the GB nowadays started to partake after 1935.
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blondie
oompa, the WT publications through 1916 are online at this website.
The WTS did teach that the great crowd (great multitude) were a secondary heavenly class, that their faith was not as strong. But the WTS did not teach that everyone was going to heaven. Just more than 144,000, who would be the only ones to be kings and priests.
*** jv chap. 12 p. 161 The Great Crowd to Live in Heaven? Or on Earth? ***For many years the Bible Students thought that this was the group described at Revelation 7:9, 14 (KJ), which refers to "a great multitude" that come out of great tribulation and stand "before the throne" of God and before the Lamb, Jesus Christ. They reasoned that although these shunned a life of self-sacrifice, they would be confronted with trials of faith ending in death during a time of tribulation after the glorification of the final ones of the bride of Christ. They believed that if these who were said to be of the great multitude were faithful at that time, they would be resurrected to heavenly life—not to rule as kings but to take a position before the throne. It was reasoned that they would be given such secondary positions because their love for the Lord had not been sufficiently fervent, because they had not shown enough zeal. It was thought that these were people who had been begotten by God’s spirit but had been negligent about obeying God, possibly continuing to cling to Christendom’s churches.
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Jeremy C
Millions sit at the reject Jesus party every year. As mere onlookers. Talk about waving sandwiches under the noses of starving children. This is just for US. Nah nah nah.
Why bother going at all??
This has been my point Hamster. In the Gospel records, you will find no commandment by Jesus for "other sheep" to go sit and watch other people partake of the emblems. The whole affair is rediculous. You are certainly right - why bother attending? There was only the commandment to partake; there is nothing written about being a spectator.
There is a huge difference between playing baseball versus sitting up in the grand stands and watching.
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yadda yadda 2
The Watchtower could easily explain this away by saying that the great crowd is still an earthly class but that they are also in the 'new covenant' and can therefore partake if they choose. It can easily be argued that Jesus created two separate covenants..the 'new covenant' for all Christians, regardless of whether they believe they are going to heaven or staying on earth, and the 'covenant for a kingdom', which is only for the 144,000 (literal or symbolic). Whether a person has a heavenly or earthly hope is irrelevant. A convincing case for that could easily be presented by the GB.
Raymond Franz pointed out very well that there is practically no difference in how the 144k and great crowd are presented and described in Revelation, however, this does not necessarily mean the GC are a heavenly class..it could simply mean they are genuinely in the 'new covenant' and have received of the holy spirit. The language of Rev 7: 16, 17 can be argued as suggestive of an earthly destiny, something Ray Franz did not adequately address in his second book.
Basically, as pointed out, there is no difference between the 144K and the GC in terms of their relationship with Jesus. Both groups have their robes washed in the blood of the lamb, are in God's presence, receive of the holy spirit, etc, an obvious scriptural truth which the Watchtower Society has horribly twisted. The Society has put all the emphasis on their apparent different 'hopes' and ignored the overall context of the scriptures, which give no support to the notion that an entire class of Christians are outside of the new covenant.
But lets ask a theoretical question: If the GB decided to provide some explanation for these big increases in the partakers, what explanation could they offer? What is the most economical and palatable explanation?
Answer: The above explanation I've offered is much too radical for most JW's. It would require quite a complex and major shift in theology, something the Watchtower is clearly not interested in doing, even if it is the truth. No, instead the simplest and easiest 'explanation' or 'new light' for the Society to propound for the rank and file would be to simply say that the 144k may be literal and it may be symbolic, ie, that the Watchtower to admit that either interpretation could be possible. This would be easily accepted because it is entirely reasonable and natural given that the context of nearly all of Revelation 7 and 14 is symbolic. The weight of the immediate scriptural context suggests a symbolic interpretation is a real possibility. The Society's disproportionate emphasis on the words in Rev 7: 9 "...which no man could number.." is hardly enough to override the fact that the rest of Rev 7 is symbolic. So the reasonable position of allowing either interpretation to be true is the simple way out of this for the Society, if these big increases in the partakers continues.
But when was the Society ever not dogmatic? When has it allowed more than one interpretation to be a possibility? Never, to their shame.
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carla
marking, thank you.
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insearchoftruth
I am not sure if this is the correct place to address...but doesn't it also say to partake of the emblems (or whatever they are called) until Jesus returns....which he supposedly has in 1914, even though invisibly???
How is this explained?
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oompa
truthsearcher:
I am not sure if this is the correct place to address...but doesn't it also say to partake of the emblems (or whatever they are called) until Jesus returns....which he supposedly has in 1914, even though invisibly???
How is this explained?
I am pretty sure you know by now that jesus cumes as many times as a porn star. He came to earth as the messiah, the came back from the dead, he came invisibly in 1914 but is still "ruling in the midst of his enemies"....so he still has not come "in all his glory" which i believe is when the 1000 year kindom thingy starts.................oompa
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Witness 007
I always wanted to be anointed and "lord it over" all the other brothers. I should go to the memorial and have a free feed.
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insearchoftruth
I am pretty sure you know by now that jesus cumes as many times as a porn star. He came to earth as the messiah, the came back from the dead, he came invisibly in 1914 but is still "ruling in the midst of his enemies"....so he still has not come "in all his glory" which i believe is when the 1000 year kindom thingy starts.................oompa
So that is the key......needs to be 'in all his glory'.........