Jesus Is Jehovah/Jehovah Is Jesus (page 2)

Jeremy C

Forgive me for being so contrarian in this thread.

But, the way that I see it, Jehovah and Jesus are not the least bit related. They are polar opposites. In the Old Testament, Jehovah thought it just fine for Joshua and others to slaughter unarmed women and children, to kill infants, and for men to use women for their own sexual indulgements. Yahweh has all of the anthropomorphic atributes of any Roman or Greek God: insecurity, jealousy, fitful outbursts of rage, and arranging elaborate natural disasters to smite his enemies (how can the omnipotent have enemies?) when simply euthenizing them would have sufficed. Yahweh was a fickle, arbitrary, and petty deity who easily got his nose out of joint for the most silly of indescretions. (why would the omnipotent power of the universe care whether or not a man cut off his foreskin, or hair?)

Jesus Christ (at least what is recorded of him) does not even remotely display or express these neurotic personality disorders. I find it curious that there is no Gospel account of Jesus using his Godly power to kill anyone or to strike anyone with leprosy the way that he so easily did in the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, he had no issues with commanding his pet nation to slaughter other nations, yet when he comes to earth; he delivers the "Good Samaritan" parable. I simply see no connection whith Yahweh and Jesus.

Of course, this may be all academic; since I do not believe in the Bible one way or the other.

snowbird

JeremyC, I appreciate your thoughts.

Philippians 2 mentions how Jesus emptied himself and became a servant. This begs the question of what He was before doing this. I've come to the conclusion that He was YHWH, the Most High God of Israel.

From The Message Bible:

Isaiah 53

1 Who believes what we've heard and seen? Who would have thought God's saving power would look like this?

2 -6 The servant grew up before God—a scrawny seedling,
a scrubby plant in a parched field. There was nothing attractive about him,
nothing to cause us to take a second look. He was looked down on and passed over,
a man who suffered, who knew pain firsthand. One look at him and people turned away.
We looked down on him, thought he was scum. But the fact is, it was our pains he carried—
our disfigurements, all the things wrong with us. We thought he brought it on himself,
that God was punishing him for his own failures. But it was our sins that did that to him,
that ripped and tore and crushed him—our sins! He took the punishment, and that made us whole.
Through his bruises we get healed. We're all like sheep who've wandered off and gotten lost.
We've all done our own thing, gone our own way. And God has piled all our sins, everything we've done wrong,
on him, on him.

7 -9 He was beaten, he was tortured,
but he didn't say a word. Like a lamb taken to be slaughtered
and like a sheep being sheared,
he took it all in silence. Justice miscarried, and he was led off—
and did anyone really know what was happening? He died without a thought for his own welfare,
beaten bloody for the sins of my people. They buried him with the wicked,
threw him in a grave with a rich man, Even though he'd never hurt a soul
or said one word that wasn't true.

10 Still, it's what God had in mind all along,
to crush him with pain. The plan was that he give himself as an offering for sin
so that he'd see life come from it—life, life, and more life.
And God's plan will deeply prosper through him.

11 -12 Out of that terrible travail of soul,
he'll see that it's worth it and be glad he did it. Through what he experienced, my righteous one, my servant,
will make many "righteous ones,"
as he himself carries the burden of their sins. Therefore I'll reward him extravagantly—
the best of everything, the highest honors— Because he looked death in the face and didn't flinch,
because he embraced the company of the lowest. He took on his own shoulders the sin of the many,
he took up the cause of all the black sheep.

The account in Acts 8 about the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip sheds light on this, also.

Of course, this may be all academic; since I do not believe in the Bible one way or the other.

John 12:47 is very, very reassuring.

Sylvia

sacolton

Without the WTBTS filters, the bible reads in harmony that Jehovah is the pre-incarnate Christ. We know that noone has seen the Father at anytime. Yet, we read that Abraham talked face to face with Jehovah. That's not possible if Jehovah is the Father. We read that Jacob wrestled with Jehovah. Again, not possible if Jehovah is the Father. The apostles wanted to see the Father and Jesus told them, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." Jesus said he is the "I AM" and they wanted to stone him for blasphemy. Jehovah said He alone is God and there is no god with Him. So, how can this happen when we read that Jesus is "a god"? We read that Stephen calls out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" before being killed. Yet, we see that the bible says the spirit returns to God who gave it. Jesus Is Jehovah and Jehovah Is Jesus.

Jeremy C

I will concede however that some of the Christian scholars make good points as to Scriptural references that tie Jesus to Yahweh. I have read a lot of Ron Rhodes work (particularly on the trinity) as well as listening to talks by ex-JW Christians on the links between Yahweh and Jesus. I have no doubt in my mind that many (if not all) of the NT writers believed that Jesus was Yahweh. In this regard, I believe that the Watchtower Society is incorrect and attempting to cling to their Adventist roots.

snowbird

In this regard, I believe that the Watchtower Society is incorrect and attempting to cling to their Adventist roots.

The crowning point of the WT's error, imo, is their mauling of John 1:1 and 8:58.

There is simply no justification for their mistranslation of those verses.

Sylvia

sacolton

There can be no doubt that Jesus is/was Jehovah ... compare these scriptures:

Isaiah 40:10

Behold, the Lord GOD (JEHOVAH) will come with might, With His arm ruling for Him. Behold, His reward is with Him And His recompense before Him.

Revelation 22:12

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me (JESUS), to render to every man according to what he has done."

snowbird

Bravo!, SAC.

Sylvia

possible-san

Although I think that people have the freedom of believing what they choose anything, the fact is not "Jehovah is Jesus."
And this view is not related to teaching of the "Trinity."

Although I think that this material is interesting, Jehovah (the Father) and Christ (the Son) are two separate persons .
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/164232/3042544/post.ashx#3042544 It is the same also in the dogma of the Trinity . The governing body of JW teaches followers a lie with this point.

I stated as mentioned above.

Probably, when you think "Jehovah is Jesus", the understanding about the Trinity of the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses will be right.
And if Jehovah's Witnesses meet people who think "Jehovah is Jesus", they are glad and will defeat those mistaken views completely.

The meaning of "Jesus is Jehovah" is clearly different from the meaning "Jesus is God."

possible
http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/

aniron

Would the chart have produced different arguments if the chart headings had read :

God is Titles Jesus is

Country Girl

snowbird and sacolton:

It took me SO LONG to understand this. It took me SO LONG to understand that I didn't NEED a religion, I just needed God. It took me a long time to realize that my life was with God,and it was a PRIVATE life. He said that he is the way, the truth, and the life. All I need is HIM, not a church or a body of elders or anything. Just him. I love him, and thank you for what you do.

God Bless.

Jesus Is Jehovah/Jehovah Is Jesus

Isaiah 53

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