by BurnTheShips 79 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Why couldn't it be that the energy comprising the universe is eternal?
According to our best science, energy came into being with matter at the same time, so no, no pre-existing energy.......at least there was no pre-existing natural energy. Natural all started at once in the big bang, according to the best scientific knowledge we have. Every natural thing we know to exist came into being at that moment, or has its causes in events chaining back to that source.
BTS
A moon is a natural object.
God is an unnatural object? (Unless he's made out of spaghetti and meatballs)
Quite right BTS, but you do believe me by what I've told you that there is not 1 moon but 2.
I do believe in human imagination though, and I do believe in that spiritual Gods were derived from mans ignorance of the world around us ...... upon contemplation is there really an argument about that?
Quite right BTS, but you do believe me by what I've told you that there is not 1 moon but 2.
A moon can be subjected to scientific verification.
I do believe in human imagination though, and I do believe in that spiritual Gods were derived from mans ignorance of the world around us
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/170395/1/Stephen-Hawking-the-Big-Bang-and-God
BTS
According to our best science, energy came into being with matter at the same time, so no, no pre-existing energy.......at least there was no pre-existing natural energy. Natural all started at once in the big bang, according to the best scientific knowledge we have. Every natural thing we know to exist came into being at that moment, or has its causes in events chaining back to that source.
I think you missed my point, but I may not have stated it clearly. Our "current" universe does not appear to be eternal, and there are solid arguments for that. However, who said there wasn't other universes before our own that have gone through big bang/big crunch cycles?
Or let me argue this from the other direction. You state that nothing in the universe is eternal, yet something must have caused it, and that is defined as "god." Why is god automatically eternal? That's another case of special pleading. No evidence is presented as to god's existence in the first place, let alone it being eternal.
Also, do you not see the problem with sticking the "god" explanation somewhere just because we don't know? We don't know what caused the big bang. We may never know. But saying "god did it" is a huge leap, especially when we have no evidence to support that claim in any way, shape, or form.
But it seems to be human nature. You gotta fight our natural desire to have an answer for everything now. Man has done this ever since ancient times when he credited "god" for directly causing weather, earthquakes, movement of stars, etc. Resist the urge! It's ok for us not to know something! "God" should not be an automatic fill-in answer.
However, who said there wasn't other universes before our own that have gone through big bang/big crunch cycles?
Maybe even our universe is eternal. It always strikes as very odd to what extent our perception of the origin of the universe is influenced by mythology.
I think that Pascal's Wager is drek.
However, who said there wasn't other universes before our own that have gone through big bang/big crunch cycles?
Who shows there are, may I subject your speculation to the same evidence claims? You merely posit an alternative. We can invoke Occam's Razor here. God is perfectly simple, and explains everything about the universe. The universe is incredibly complex, and explains nothing about itself. So Occam's Razor would seem to favor God over some infinite set of universes, existing forever.
Or let me argue this from the other direction. You state that nothing in the universe is eternal, yet something must have caused it, and that is defined as "god."
The OP presents a set of rational/philosophical arguments for a First Cause, something that I (and many others) call "God". (Science itself rests on rational/philosophical presuppositions also which cannot be scientfically proved either, but to get back to the point.) You want scientific evidence, something that scientists themselves know they will never be able to get, because science cannot go past the beginning. In fact, science can't even observe all the way to the beginning, since we cannot see any earlier than the first Planck second; the laws of physics not holding before that point.
Why is god automatically eternal? That's another case of special pleading. No evidence is presented as to god's existence in the first place, let alone it being eternal.
First research what eternal means. It does not mean lasting an infinite amount of time. Time came into existence along with energy and matter in the Big Bang. Something that existed before Time, is not in Time, is eternal by definition.
BTS
I think that Pascal's Wager is drek.
Thanks, your subtle reasoning has me convinced.
BTS
