Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God

by BurnTheShips 79 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    Not so.

    So you believe the universe is more complex than its supposed creator?

    So if you can't fully understand it, it can't exist? I would call that hubris.

    Of course you know that's not what I'm saying. I am saying there is absolutely no way for you to know your theories about "god" are even remotely true. Not one bit. You can make all the claims you want, and all the special pleadings you desire, but when it comes down to it you have nothing. Nothing to show that you are on the right track.

    I'm glad we don't have to use that approach for anything else that affects the real world.

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32

    Pascal's Wager: when logic fails, use fear.

  • Homerovah the Almighty
    Homerovah the Almighty

    I've met the creator of the universe and his name is not Jehovah, its Bill Gates......so there

  • Tuesday
    Tuesday

    It potentially doesn't work if you say that believing in the incorrect God could leave you worse off than not believing in God at all. However since few religious theologies say that (at least none that I have heard of), you are still on the safer side of the wager.

    The Bible and the Qu'ran both teach this. Sure I didn't believe in God, but at least I wasn't worshipping false Gods.

    So in Example A, your belief in God doesn't change anything, and in Example B your belief in God changes something for the better if God exists and doesn't change anything if he doesn't. So Pascal's wager still works.

    One would argue something did change for the better though. Say there is no God and you spent your life doing everything in your power to gain salvation through him. I could argue that in this scenario I win because I lived my life in a more pleasurable way. I spent my time doing what I wanted to do instead of what a non-existant being wanted me to. Therefore you actually did end up losing something, your life.

    Not only that, if you further that logic into the example that we both have it wrong that not only is there a God but he's not the God you're worshipping. At least I lived my life the way I wanted to, without trying to please a God. In this scenario we both receive the same punishment AND you have wasted your entire life trying to please the wrong deity.

    This is why it's a bunk wager, it's still a bet and there is no better bet than any other. The outcome is still unknown, it's not like you're trying to cover a point spread or anything. It's like playing Russian Roulette, are you any better off with a gun having not fired vs. a gun having fired but no round coming out? I would say not. Though a more accurate description would be Russian Roulette with four bullets and one empty chamber, are you any better off with a gun that has not fired vs a gun that has fired one round? You still know there's a chance of living since that chamber had not passed but the odds are still pretty slim.

  • hamilcarr
    hamilcarr

    I hope my creator is less complex than my brain

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    So you believe the universe is more complex than its supposed creator?

    I believe so.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_simplicity

    I am saying there is absolutely no way for you to know your theories about "god" are even remotely true. Not one bit. You can make all the claims you want, and all the special pleadings you desire, but when it comes down to it you have nothing. Nothing to show that you are on the right track.

    But you do?

    I don't claim to have proof that can be tested in a lab, but I don't have "nothing"! I think that God can be reasonbably demonstrated to exist philosophically, which is what the arguments in the original post attempt to do.

    What I claim is that belief in God is reasonable. For proof I point out the stars in the sky and the sense of wonder looking at them brings, the beauty of nature, the love of a child.

    God is simple and plain, if not easy to comprehend.

    BTS

  • drwtsn32
    drwtsn32
    But you do?

    No, not to how the universe got here. I'm not claiming that at all. I'm claiming ignorance to how it happened. And I'm claiming disbelief in god because there is no evidence. I don't believe in anything that doesn't have evidence to back it up.

    You are the one making claims here; you are the one claiming a belief in god. My disbelief is not in itself a belief; the burden of proof lies squarely on the one making the positive claim.

    It is no different than if someone said they believed in invisible purple unicorns that inhabit a higher dimension. On whom does the burden of proof lie? On a disbeliever to disprove it? No, that's not how it works. The person making the claim needs to provide the proof if they expect to convince others.

    What I claim is that belief in God is reasonable. For proof I point out the stars in the sky and the sense of wonder looking at them brings, the beauty of nature, the love of a child.

    I experience the same when I look at the sky. But that's not proof of god. A believer may consider it "evidence" if they already believe, but I am amazed and it does not lead me to believe in god.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips
    I'm claiming ignorance to how it happened.

    Well, me too, I am just saying that the Universe came from a Cause. I have never heard of an uncaused effect, or that anything with a beginning was without a cause. Have you?

    I don't believe in anything that doesn't have evidence to back it up.

    No, let me refine what is implicit in your statement: You say you don't believe in anything that has no scientific evidence to back it up. I would respond that you are deluding yourself-- because whether you realize it or not-- you believe in things that science cannot prove.

    BTS

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR

    Those arguments are pretty good, but they are all humanistic. I prefer the Transcendental Arguement for God. This arguement was formulated by Immanuel Kant, and is pretty unstoppable, IMHO. This arguement was brought into reformed Christianity by Dorweerd (sp?), Van Til, Clark, Frame, Bahnsen and Morey.

    In a nutshell the arguement goes like this, "What must be in order for what is to be what it is?" For example, if it is 100 degrees (no I am not going to break this down into Celsius, lol) outside the house, but 70 degrees in the house, what accounts for the reality of the discrepancy?

  • Homerovah the Almighty
    Homerovah the Almighty

    Its intellectually honest to accept the unknown, it is deceptively dishonest to not - Homerovah

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