"The Elders"

AllTimeJeff

I wanted to be an elder all my life. I had an ambitious personality, and as I look back, I latched on to the first goal offered and encouraged.
I am aware that the bible speaks of leadership. To be sure, all groups that try to organize will either have leadership imposed on it, or, the natural leaders will step up. Sometimes, its both.
Frankly, it isn't that the bible has its own leadership system in the OT and NT. It has everything to do with the concept of the governing body.
There are elders mentioned in each congregation. What isn't stated is a central body that appoints elders as JW's practice. The bible specifically mentions Paul, the Apostles, Timothy, Titus, and some others I think that are not coming to mind at the moment.
The bible paints the 1st century congregations as loosely organized communities of worship. They were visited by Paul, who seemed hell bent on enforcing all sorts of ideas not found in the gospels... (another story.) Interestingly, Jesus never referred to the leadership of elders, wanting all to be brothers, not to be rabbi's, etc. (yet another story)
When it comes to the elder arrangement of Jehovah's Witnesses, the issue isn't the need to have "organization" or leadership. Any group dynamic, even if its the "Toy's R Us Tots for Obama" gang (I made that up, work with me) will have some kind of leadership..... And the bible refers to leadership, so thats not an issue as to its utility.
It's the fact that the elder's have morphed. As far as the Governing Body is concerned, it is a frustrating necessity, because as much time is spent at the Service Dept at Bethel straightening out the messes elders create as they do helping elders shepherd their flocks.
Yet, without the elders, the GB could not have grown as they have. So they are not being disingenuous when they make comments in the Proclaimers book that the growth is in large part to having the elder arrangement since 1972. They have had good ROI.
If Freddie Franz only could see what he helped create. Instead of one easy elder to control per congregation, now you have a bunch of elders, who have turned into a bunch of Agent Smith's, very hard to control.... That is the downside.....
Oh wait, I'm sorry, they'refor YOU! The history, the BS, the politics, it could all be excused if they helped their flocks. But being an elder is a personal goal, an accomplishment. For all the politics that goes on, many bodies of elders can circle the wagons like nobody's business. (ostensibly, this is why MTS was started, to break up these body of elders......)
AND ITS NOT ABOUT THE FLOCK. ITS NOT ABOUT YOU!
Even if you get the occasional liberal elder who wants to help people, eventually, if it goes against borgish teachings, this well intentioned elder will have to make a decision on whether to the true to what their conscience is telling them or be obedient to the borg. Often, if an elder has a lot invested in the borg, (hints and promises of CO-ship, Bethel, Gilead, Assembly parts, etc) then they might screw you. Or they might step down. Either way, your help won't last for long.
Truth and Justice

Hi Everyone,
Good Thread here! I realize the difficulty that Elders have to face each time there at a meeting. I certainly would never accept the responsibility, because we are all Brothers working together equally under God's roof. For the life of me, I could not sit there and disfellowship someone who is begging or asking for forgiveness. If they are sorry, they are sorry. I can not peer into their heart, only Jehovah or Jesus are able.
I find that these Judicial committees are so outrageous that if Jesus was sitting there, he would have choice words for those men, (they are just men).
I once knew an individual, a brother who was disfellowshsiped because of an affair he had with a young woman. His father of course, being an elder excused himself from the case. So anyway this young brother sits with the elders and says " I want to say that I am guilty of wrong doing in that I committed fornication, and that I am deeply sorry for my sinfulness."
This young brother tells me that the elders asked him a bunch of questions, for example, "Whom did you have this affair with?" "Where does she live?" "When did this happen?" "Where did this take place?" They also asked- "Were you enjoying this?"
THIS WENT ON FOR 3 HOURS. This is what I call a thirst for dirt and gratification on the elders part, disgusting in my opinion! The young man sinned in regards to fornication, what more do they need to know.
I can only imagine what "Christ" would have done if he had heard about this situation.
What I can say is that true shepparding involves a personal closeness to the individual, listening to them, nuturing them. Visiting the brothers and sisters in the nursing home, those in the hospital, taking a young boy who does'nt have a father out for some fun, tending to the needs of those that just plain want some company, and by all means, if they have a problem that they want help on, to only and strictly use the bible, not some publication full of men's ideas (and perfoming this in a matter of confidentiality).
These days, I am glad to be on this side of the fence.
Take care!! Truth and Justice
reniaa

It's obvious being an elder can be easily abused especially if they have to dispense reprove, I have to say when I got a private reproof many years ago it was 10 minutes and the elders were brief but kind, At that time I was free-falling out of the JW's but I will always remember their kindness which I think had a touch of sadness to it, I think they knew I was heading out too but were doing what they could to keep me in.
Since then I have had jobs with a lot of responsibility in charge of groups, back-biting, ambition, misunderstandings, when I had to reprove a staff member give them a verbal warning etc, it didn't matter! Sometimes however kind I was they were so defensive that they would go away thinking I was evil whatever I did because they so resented the reproof and I knew as eggs was eggs they would do the same thing again because they hadn't taken on board that the verbal meant as a warning that they had done wrong and needed to be curtailed and other staff needed to see that I as boss I wasn't condoning actions, invaribly a lot of verbals were on poor work or treatment of other staff members.
Elders is an aspect of a religion but you can't escape the basic work of it.
Are the alternatives better?
the local priest/vicar in my area is over 5 churches his has little or no contact with his flock he does pre-written sermons and collects money for weddings it's very business-like, spirituality of flock is a very minor consideration, compared to weddings etc that bring the money in.
I have some knowledge of charismatic churches their leaders are sets of couples it's has a nice social feel to it, but they have little control over their flock, one member said he'd heard a prophecy that he needed to get tattooed all over to reach the common man and he did he has yet to talk to a single perons but he does have some nice tattooes :) the couples in charge cannot say nay or anything because they are taught whatever anyone hears in voices or prophesies must have meaning. they have talkers that can say anything on any subject as long as it's vaguely spiritual of cause occasionally this has led to bazaar and wonderful talks but a recent one had to be taken off stage for being racist. it took the whole audience having to be totally uncomfortable with his talk first.
One of these prophecies led to a skate park being built under the church at no little cost to get the youth to socialise but have a chance to learn about God as well. The youth ministers would be there ready, what happenned? well it was very popular with the local kids unfortunately they went there surprisingly only want to skate and have a laugh and so now it is dis-used a minument to a bad decision done on a whim, we they weren't going to keep it going just for people to have fun when it was menat to draw them in spiritually.
Leadership is a necessity how can it be avoided?
when Jesus was wahsing the feet of the appostles wasn't he preparing them for the responsibilities of leadership?
KAYTEE

Min,
I never reached those dizzy heights, an elder once said to me you will never be an elder because you are not prepared to work with them………………………THE TRUEST STATEMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD FROM elders.
I could not work with lying cheating two faced people who have never had a position of authority in their lives.
They do not act like "true Christians".

You can sit in a hen house but it don’t make you a chicken.
Likewise, you can go to church, but it don’t make you a christian.
KT
passwordprotected

Reniaa, if you posted less, would your posts have less spelling mistakes? Would they make more sense? Just wondering.
Anyway, the pressure elders and their families are put under, both before appointment - ie. when you're being 'considered for appointment' - and afterwards is great. But, as they say, where much is given much is expected in return.
Sadly, though, being an elder has little to do with scripturally and spiritually shepherding the flock and more to do with making sure the flock stays in line with Watch Tower Society rules, oftentimes as interpreted by one or two 'big personality' elders.
KAYTEE

password...
oftentimes as interpreted by one or two 'big personality' elders.
I certainly found that to be true.
In my very last cong. We had a hit man, B.D. he was used at tricky times to sought things out, did not have ½ ounce of Christianity or common sense, always had to flex his muscles.
When I read what I print, sometimes I think I must have been an Absolute idiot for putting up with them (elders) for so long.
KT
fokyc

Minimus,
KT said: "I could not work with lying cheating two faced people"
Some weeks ago two elders came to my house to complain about my wife's behaviour;
when that was dealt with I let them have it with ALL barrels! I told them they were liars, they had lied to the local congregation, they had lied to the Branch office, they had lied to the CO. Later one of them told my wife he would make arrangements for the CO to visit me to 'put matters straight'.
Isn't it strange the CO never came and these elders have never returned to deal with this situation.
I am Baptised but I no longer attend any meetings, I am NOT DF'd and I have NOT DA'd myself.
These elders certainly are lying two faced people.
I wish I could understand exactly where Reniaa stands in relation to the JW's, perhaps someone would help me?
fokyc
reniaa

hi fokyc first can I say sorry, for previous post, I was tired and sleepy when writing it, so it came out fairly incoherent.
hi Fokyc, good day to you hun.
My position on this board is as pro-Jw, I do not apologise for it. I think most of the incidents that we use as examples on this forum can be seen as human error and people who are just plain nasty. Being a witness or elder doesn't stop people having serious flaws and doing quite horrendous things.
I would like to ask some questions.
Can a church survive without leaders/elders/priest/someone to take charge give sermons etc?
Given what the bible hints at when it discusses the organisation of things in heaven, angels, God, Archangel, princes, etc: does it look like a structured organisation is also up there with spirit beings given authority and power?
If our elders cannot be perfect like Jesus should they be rejected?
I will say Jesus always emphasised humility in leadership.

quietlyleaving

Reniaa

it sounds like you are presenting an argumentum ad verecundiam (a contrast to ad hominem)

from wikipedia

... arguments from authority are an important part of informal logic. Since we cannot have detailed knowledge of a great many topics, we must often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true, in contrast to claiming that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism: It can be true, the truth can merely not be proven, or made probable by attributing it to the authority, and the assumption that the assertion was true might be subject to criticism and turn out to have actually been wrong. If a criticism appears that contradicts the authority's statement, then merely the fact that the statement originated from the authority is not an argument for ignoring the criticism.

fokyc

Reniaa,
it2 - p.279 - Love God hates liars, for they have no love of the truth. He declared to the apostle John in vision: "Outside [the holy city, New Jerusalem] are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking [phi·lon´] and carrying on a lie."—Re 22:15; 2Th 2:10-12
How can elders who lie continue shepherding the flock?
fokyc

"The Elders"

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