My Witness Mom Asks " What Doubts Have you Had ? " - My Honest Reply

by flipper 22 Replies latest jw friends

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  flipper

  Even though my 82 year old witness mom has been a JW since 1951 - we have always been close, able to talk about anything as she is not your typical mind controlled witness - she is reasonable and values family over alleigance to the WT society. In my 5 years being out of the witnesses as a fader both her and my elder dad have respected why I stopped going ( initially over injustices by elders ) and later as I've told them , the child abuse issues , view of higher education, etc. So when we were having a friendly mom to son chat - my mom opened the opportunity for me to share more about my doubts - and you guys know me - I CAREFULLY dived right in.

  It started by my mom expressing concern over my fading witness niece blaming her witness parents ( my sister & husband ) for her problems as an adult . My niece was quite vocal and angry towards my sister - even wrote a nasty letter to the WT society saying she didn't want anything to do with witnesses. I told my mom I disagreed with my niece being hateful towards my sister - that even if a person disagrees or has doubts about the organization - they should still allow their witness family the freedom to pursue their beliefs with respect and dignity - as long as they respect our freedom to have differences. So my mom asked me , " What doubts have you had ? " I asked her, " Are you sure it won't upset you if I say ? " She replied, " No. I'm fine. I'm just curious. " So I thought here is my opportunity.

  I said, " You know mom how when I was a boy you and dad taught me that elders were a " crag and stronghold " to be turned to for guidance in times of need ? And that they were appointed by holy spirit ? Well - I've had experiences over the years that made me have serious doubts about that due to faulty counsel given me in the way of personal opinions by elders instead of giving me Bible based counsel . " I continued , " For instance over 5 years ago I was told by elders to accept back a worldy wife who was a methamphetamine addict and told if she felt uncomfortable when my witness daughters visited - to meet my witness daughters in a park to visit them - and not have them in my home if it made my druggie wife uncomfortable ! " I added, " If this counsel was from Jehovah - then Jehovah is seriously screwed up ! " My mom agreed. I told my mom that I told the elders their counsel was seriously messed up - that I DID NOT agree with it , and I'm sure God didn't either ! The elders even tried to blame me for druggie wife leaving - although it was HER decision to leave. My mom asked, " Well, don't you think Jehovah will hold those elders accountable for the wrong actions they committed unjustly towards you ? " And I replied, " Yes, Jehovah may hold them accountable mom, but the Watchtower society will never hold them accountable for their actions ! " Then she said, " Well, you may have a point there. "

  Then we discussed my witness ex-wife's mental state a bit. In 1997 after 18 years of marriage my then witness wife admitted that as a 12 year old girl she had been sexually molested by her uncles whose father ( her grandfather ) was an elder. My wife refused to get professional counseling and had anger towards everybody for her pain, including me . One reason our marriage wol never work. Even the elders advised her at the time to get professional counseling by a therapist, but she refused. my mom asked, " And I bet the elders did nothing towards her uncle's to discipline them after she was abused , did they ? I said, " No. " My mom said, " That's tragic. "

  Then I discussed briefly with mom how the elders tried to DF me on " circumstantial fornication " 2 years ago right before Mrs. Flipper and I married - and how the elders dragged it out 9 months ! - only to overturn the DFing decision in an appeal meeting due to lack of evidence. I told her of their harassing phone calls to my wife, how it scared her, and how they seemed to just want to convict me - without a trial, or evidence ! My mom said, " That was awful you and your wife had to go through that. I'm glad you are happy and it's over. " She continued, " Son- with all you have been through- you could write a book and make millions . " I said, " Well, yeah, but I'd just as soon forget it, move on with life in happiness ! "

  So that's it ! It was a great conversation ! She loves my wife a lot and can see that some of us faders don't go off the deep end when we leave the witnesses. Some of us don't go and have orgies, do drugs, and end up down and out drunks on the street. So my mom thanked me for going into details and she said it filled in some holes which she didn't know about my life. So what do you guys and gals think ? Do you think my mom will think about some of these things ? I look forward to your comments as always ! Peace out to all, Mr. Flipper
• 

  Scarred for life

  It sounds very, very promising, Flipper. Thanks for sharing and congratulations to you and your mom for having such an open honest relationship. I wish it had been that way with me and my mom.
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  Homerovah the Almighty

  Folks that have been in this religion for a very long time such as your mother and my father for example seem to forgive and accept

  the many varied problematic circumstances that come up on occasion,

  it could be that they have committed themselves for such a length of time they still contain within themselves that

  this is still the best and only way to live in the world.

  For many its a balance of what if I don't, opposed to what if I do leave and this in itself creates so many of the fence sitters

  that you hear about in this faith. The problem that I see particular for those long time followers is the JWS have given them an staid in

  grained identity that they knowingly know they would have a difficult time removing and replacing.

  I do believe that my own father stumbled into this religion out of his own ignorance and fear of being a young man,

  I'm sure it all seemed good at the time when he first came into it, but over the years I can see his faith has dwindled down

  somewhat and I certainly have a level of empathy for him now based on that fact.

  Anyways keep that channel of communication open with your mother Flipper, you never know what might transpire.
• 

  DaCheech

  go mom!

  unfortunately, like my mom she has this halfway viewpoint:

  the elders are bad, the witlesses are bad, the society is wrong.... but they help us to serve the God of the Bible..... so we must stay
• 

  shopaholic

  Flipper, its great to hear that you can speak so openly to your mom about your stance with the JWs and she continues to treat you as her son. She is surely an open-minded woman.

  My niece also left. No explanation, just simply that she no longer wanted to be a JW. She was always cordial and made it clear that it was not open for discussion. Her super-dub 20-year pioneering mom (my ex-SIL) followed her out about a year later. Maybe your calm demeanor will have a similar effect.

  But just your mom saying "I'm glad you are happy and it's over. " shows that your mom really understands.
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  loosie

  Your mom sounds very open minded.

  you could write a book and make millions

  Millions of dollars would certainly help in the forgetting process.
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  SnakesInTheTower

  flipper...

  is there something in the KoolAid? Because I just got off the phone with my mon (65yrs old, started studying in 69)..and she asked me the same damn question. I kept to my script about the elders... she is pissed off at a former close friend of mine that is an elder in the town I live in because he refused to provide me the Koolaid WT...I had to come to the KH to get it (his words "you have legs").

  I told my mom tonight...we do not have enough time to discuss all of the problems I have with the WTBTS and JWs doctrine. If I spoke my "concerns" to an elder, I would be DF'd. She keeps on the with her whole mantra: "Jehovah has always had an Organization on earth."

  I did not disagree but instead told her, "yes and Jehovah has spanked his organization a few times in the course of history" (ie, ...Israel, 40 years in the wilderness..... 70CE with the destruction of the temple.... putting the WT officers in prison....) I then told her.... "I think its time Jehovah does some more spanking." She could not disagree. I told her if Jehovah does some serious cleaning out of the Org I would consider coming back (I know I will never have to make good on that because there is no fuc$king Jehovah and the bible is a fairy tale.)

  I told her I loved her and we would agree to disagree. She promised to drop the new Koolaid edition of the WT in the mail this week....yee hah...cant wait.... {{gag}} I got off the phoone and started dinner...which should be done soon....

  Snakes ()
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  oompa

  awesome flip...but i am just shocked that you had not shared the personal experiences with your parents as they happened (esp since they were not over doctrinal matters)...how and why did you stay silent as all that crap was goin down? I may be different...but think i would have had to reach out to my parents at times like that....sorry you had to go it alone......oomps
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  BabaYaga

  Holy moly! Well you know, I thought this bit was incredible...

  " Yes, Jehovah may hold them accountable mom, but the Watchtower society will never hold them accountable for their actions ! " Then she said, " Well, you may have a point there. "

  And then I saw THIS...

  She continued, " Son- with all you have been through- you could write a book and make millions . "

  Your Mom has basically just told you to write an apostate book, here. How does she think you can tell the story without telling that hugely influential part of it?

  Love to your Mom! Awesome!
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  jws

  For some reason, that seems to be the "acceptable" reason for fading - trouble with others in the congregation. My father wanted to bury his head in the sand on this issue too. Unlike you, I had doctrinal issues. When my father would ask, I would bring up some of them, which would bring the conversation to a halt. But then, 6 months or so later, he'd ask if I'm not going because of somebody at the hall. He just had that thought stuck in his mind.

  I supposed that's the thing they hope for. As long as you still believe, but are turned off by some people, maybe you'll come back under the right circumstances. But if you've turned "apostate", that's a whole different story.

  The way I used to look at things (and I'm sure others did too) was that the JWs have imperfect men in leadership roles and they make mistakes. Not the organization's fault or God's fault. I used to make excuses for them. And to a certain extent, yes. People make mistakes. But there's also an organizational behavior that promotes some of these problems.

  It's good that she was open minded. I seriously doubt you've got an opening to help her out as well. Like my dad, at some point, what can you do for them? Is pulling them out, away from all of their friends and support worth it? Are they damaged goods because of the JWs and getting more damaged all the time? And will pulling them out in their last few years of life help or hurt?

  You've been honest in replying to a question. You didn't push this information on her. You've given her things to think about and the next step is hers. I wouldn't follow-up until she asks for it.