If You believe that Jesus is God....

lurk3r

I know that everyone here is an individual with their own thoughts and beliefs,and I'm not starting this thread to debate whether or not Jesus is God or not...but I am kinda curious about this. Thank you in advance for taking the time to consider this with/for me.

Jesus Christ instructed people on how to pray. With the opening line of the Lord's prayer he said (something to this effect) "Our father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name" (hope i got that right). I talked to a Christian guy today who believes in the Trinity. I expressed my doubts with regards the trinity as Jesus instructed people to pray "Our Father",and to me making a distinction beween him and God.

Are there any other places in the bible that may refer to Jesus as "Father"? Or any ways that are on the simple side, to help me understand this line of thinking? Another Friend of his descibed the trinity as 3 of the same thing, like ice,steam and water all being "different but the same".

Also, while I'm here...Why are there no commonly agree'd upon paintings or carved statues of Jesus himself?Coins from back then had imprints and there were carved statues then....why not of Jesus?He just generally has one "look" when people portray him...nothing definite as far as i know.

lurk3r

My Struggle

Are there any other places in the bible that may refer to Jesus as "Father"? Or any ways that are on the simple side, to help me understand this line of thinking? Another Friend of his descibed the trinity as 3 of the same thing, like ice,steam and water all being "different but the same".

This is a "Oneness" view of the Trinity and in orthodox christianity is viewed as heretical. This view of the trinity is also one of the least common held views of trinitarians.

The orthodox view is that Jesus is not the Father but is the same essence/nature. Jesus is one person of the trinity while being the same essence as the persons of the Holy Spirit and Father.

yadda yadda 2

Trinitarians understand the Father and Jesus to be distinct beings so there is no trouble reconciling the Lords prayer with their creed; but they think both are God, along with the holy spirit (a nonsensical and blasphemous dogma I also absolutely reject).

Isaiah 9:6 is sometimes used by trinitarians to say that Jesus is God, since it prophetically refers to Jesus as an everlasting Father.

Trinitarians can try and fudge and rationalise as much as they want, talking about "essences" and suchlike, but the fact of the matter is that Jesus viewed the Father as the "only true God" and as his own God (John 17:3, John 20:17) and the Apostle Paul made a very clear doctrinal statement that there is only "one God the Father" at 1 Corinthians 8: 6. These unambiguous scriptures allow no room for the trinity and other scriptures touching on the subject of who God is should be read subject to them.

Although Jehovah's Witnesses certainly don't give enough honour to Jesus, they are absolutely right that only the Father is Almighty God (as Jews and Muslims also correctly believe).

BurnTheShips

There is a distinction between the Son and the Father, and along with the Holy Spirit. They are different Persons, but of the same essence. So, Jesus in the flesh could pray to the Father and teach his disciples to do the same.

Also, while I'm here...Why are there no commonly agree'd upon paintings or carved statues of Jesus himself?Coins from back then had imprints and there were carved statues then....why not of Jesus?He just generally has one "look" when people portray him...nothing definite as far as i know.

Maybe because his exact physical appearance does not matter.

BTS

Deputy Dog

yadda

Although Jehovah's Witnesses certainly don't give enough honour to Jesus, they are absolutely right that only the Father is Almighty God (as Jews and Muslims also correctly believe).

If you were to honor the Son the way the bible tells you to, you've got a problem.

John 5:21"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

If you honor the Father as God, you should honor the Son as ... If you don't honor the Son as God, you don't honor the Father at all.

AllTimeJeff

Hi there. I do not worship Bible God (aka YHWH) or Jesus, or the trinity. I don't technically worship anything or anyone.

However, you are correct to point out that JW's dogma gets in the way of many literal translations of biblical text. This only goes to prove how insidious they are, and cynical.

However one chooses to worship is fine by me. Having left, I can see why trinitarians get so pissed at JW's for how they present Jesus and the trinity. (I have to say that trinitarians could sometimes improve a bit with what they maintain too, but having said that, there are legit points to explore about the trinity and its nature if one is so inclined.)

JW's present only one slim view of the trinity, and most trinitarians do not subscribe to it as such. The only reason the borg does this is to take control of the conversation, build up a straw man trinity to tear it down so that the only thing left anyone can see is " YHWH ". (and his son, Jesus)

Decided

The bible has to be explained by religions. It doesn't make sense to a logical person. The trinity is just like all the other teachings. There are scriptures that say one thing here and another there. Christ is the only begotten son of God, whatever that means and doesn't know things that God does, like when the end will come. God is greater than he is but equal too. THe holy spirit is a dove, but also God. It's all a bunch of crap.

Ken P.

Satanus

The scriptures do strongly suggest that jeses is/was yhwh. When i was a christian, i came to realise this. Of course, there are problems w the difference of their personalities.

The scripture you cited about jesus praying to his father, who was in a different place than he only work if see the bible diety from a mechanistic human angle. The wt does this, because they haven't a clue about anything spiritual. From a spiritual aspect, there is no problem for a judeachristian trinitarian god. Not that i care, anymore.

S

leavingwt

Even if you ultimately reject the Trinity as part of your faith, please know that Watchtower lied to you about WHAT the Trinity actually is. Step one, for me, was to UNDERSTAND the doctrine, to listen to what the proponents were saying and why they believed it.

The following audio recording is designed specifically for a JW or ex-JW audience. If you listen to it, you'll at least be able to reject the Trinity AFTER having KNOWN what it actually is.

(RealPlayer Required)

http://www.waltermartin.com/audio_clips/trinity.ram

http://www.waltermartin.com/audio_clips/trinity2.ram

-LWT

trebor

After first leaving the organization, I came to have a fuller and better understanding of the concept of the Trinity. Absolutely, there can be a case made for and against. It is absolutely not as narrow-minded and simplistic as the Watchtower Society presents it. My suggestion to you is to continue to research and think for yourself. No one including any organization or religion has absolute control or “the truth”. There is good to be found in many different faiths and beliefs as well as bad.

For a while I was very gung-ho about traditional Christianity and held a certain understanding of the Bible including the concept of the Trinity.

If your research brings you to believe Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one God, or any other concept, that’s fine. But you do the research. I believe and respect people are entitled to their own belief but not one person can say without a shadow of a doubt their viewpoint is absolute.

My journey thus far has brought me in believing there are greater, smarter and more intelligent being(s) than us humans in the universe – God or Gods as you may refer to it. What exactly that entails/details regarding human creation/life/purpose, I am still researching and pondering…BUT…

…I live my life and enjoy it, looking to help and assist others when I can in real practical ways. I have also accepted the notion that I may never have all the answers I need or want. Interpret that as you will, for whatever there is – if anything that we can possibly relate to on a human or human-like conscious plane - after this life may make what we have now the most important aspect of “living” or a very insignificant part of our everlasting “life” journey.

What I refuse to do is subscribe to any idea or notion just for the sake of it “sounding right” or since I don’t have a “better explanation” or “story”, the one I’m being told has to be right. This includes the Father-Son-Holy Spirit concept whether it comes from a Jehovah’s Witness, traditional Christian, or anyone else.

If You believe that Jesus is God....

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