by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible
Sorry, it wasn't my intention to trivialise the topic; I should have made clear that my first reply simply indicated the response I think you would get from most JWs in this sort of discussion. A conversation stopper, if you like.
It is an interesting topic and I have just read Mary's thread also.
Randy's article on freeminds is a classic rebuttal of the stauros = stake teaching
Well the romans were known for hanging people on crosses not stakes. It's just witnesses wanting to be assholes but what else is new?!
I recommend the rent of this documentary: http://www.blockbuster.com/movies/how-jesus-died-the-final-18-hours.html
I've often seen it for free on the History Channel. They do forensic re-creation of what happened to Jesus in the last 18 hours. Short of actually killing a human being the forensic investigation is quite interesting and convincing.
Any way you look at it, Roman crucifiction was a terrible method of execution.
You also have to consider that the Romans executed the crucifiction in different postures and affixed the victims using a variety of means. Bored Romans were not beyond sport when it came to the way they handled their victims. So obviously the way in which the victim was crucified would have an impact on their duration to death.
Same would be true how the Nazis attached their victims in their morbid re-creations of crucifications. And since I'm sure their victims were in poor physical shape to begin with. That would certainly skew the results.
All secular evidence doesn't change that crux simplex = 'simple stake' was a form of roman crucifiction/impalement at the time of Jesus's death and could involve a small seat like piece of wood that could be used to take the pressure of his lungs which mean't piecing the victims side would then be needed to cause death.
Actually I once debated this point thoroughly with leolaia but have since done more thorough research and the crucifications/impalements were all different from case to case. but I found what for me is definative proof of stake in the bible, Jesus's own words!
Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.
John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
This for me is the nail on the head that when the appostles all wrote stake (incidently knowing it implied no shape when they wrote it) that Jesus did die on a stake he fortold it himself quite clearly.
stake snake - omg reniaa you are doing just fine
renia means that idol that moses had and the people had to worship (contradicting all comandments in which no such thing was to be done). the snake idol was a stake
hi quiet and dacheech is it me your mocking or Jesus's words I am unclear? he was the one that made the comparison to the snake being lifted up on a POLE and himself also being lifted up in like manner. but you are right it did become an idol ironic really when the cross is now the foremost idol of christendom.
2 Kings 18:4
He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan. )
oops dp
hi quiet and dacheech is it me your mocking or Jesus's words I am unclear? he was the one that made the comparison to the snake being lifted up on a POLE and himself also being lifted up in like manner. but you are right it did become an idol ironic really when the cross is now the formost idol of christendom. |
nope not mocking you or Jesus at all reniaa, just noting how you seem to be bringing out some additional truths.
but I'm not sure how to take this point, here below
All secular evidence doesn't change that crux simplex = 'simple stake' was a form of roman crucifiction/impalement at the time of Jesus's death and could involve a small seat like piece of wood that could be used to take the pressure of his lungs which mean't piecing the victims side would then be needed to cause death. |
