Good point Metatron...you can't have it both ways...accuracy is accuracy and truth is truth!
Jesus not crucified on torture stake. Impossible!
by sacolton 250 Replies latest watchtower bible
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reniaa
metatron your points are circumstantial and say nothing about what shape Jesus died on. whereas Jesus indicating he died on a pole is specific to the point. to reiterate sign above head is not possible with patibulum cross but with stake can happen because above head is above head even if hands are also above head. latin cross was not an execution method at the time of Jesus's death you can get leolaia to confirm this if you want.
Nails only means more than one nailed used I'm not questioning the accuracy of the bible just that both of these are fine with a stake method of Jesus dying. And coupled with Jesus's prediction which I consider more applicable since it's directly indicative of shape is pertinent.
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Leolaia
reniaa....You should not mix up two separate questions — what "cross" means in English and what crux and stauros meant in ancient Greek and Latin. You are of course correct that "cross" is used to denote a specific shape in modern English. At the same time, it is also the only word in the English language that specifically denotes the kind of execution instrument used by the Romans — just as "crucifixion" is the term that specifically refers to the execution procedure itself. These terms are regularly used in classical scholarship to refer to Roman execution practices; you can look up any translation of Cicero or Livy or Plutarch and "cross" or "crucifixion" would be the terms used to render stauros and crux. The terms are used without assuming that a "cross" necessarily incorporated a patibulum, although it very often did. Since "cross" and "crucifixion" are the words that specifically refer to this kind of execution, there are no better terms for it in English; if one is concerned that the more everyday sense of English "cross" is going to pose a problem, it would probably be best to have a footnote explaining that crosses came in a variety of shapes. Inventing substitute terms like "torture stake" and "impalement" are much less desirable. Why? For one thing, is it not apparent to a new reader that they pertain to a specific form of execution used by the ancient Romans. "Torture stake" refers to torture, not execution, and impalement for many readers connotes a kind of death that could occur accidentally, or through a variety of means (not a specific form of Roman execution), and usually through having something pass through the body. Wrong connotation in the case of Jesus. And because the meaning of "torture stake" is a neologism of the NWT itself, the reader must depend on how the Society depicts the instrument to get a sense of what it refers to. Does the Society ever refer to the "torture stake" having a crossbeam? Does it ever depict it as having one? Is there any indication that the "torture stake" could even have one? Rather the term is used to refer to a particular kind of cross — the crux simplex. I doubt a two-beamed cross the first thing you picture in your mind when you encounter the term "torture stake", correct?
you are saying cross can still mean many types including just a stake and yet no one reading the word cross would realise this.
Yet I doubt that anyone reading the term "torture stake" would automatically think of it referring to many types of crosses, most of which contained a transverse beam. The English term "cross" better suits the connotations of stauros and crux, which if ever described in detail were generally depicted as having crossbeams. "Torture stake" excludes one of the most distinctive elements of the Roman crux.
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Leolaia
You cannot change leolaia that the first thing a reader thinks of when reading 'cross' is the picture of Jesus arms stretched out on a latin cross in every church today.
You cannot change the fact that the first thing a JW thinks of when reading "torture stake" is picturing Jesus' arms stretched above his head on a single post, without the use of any patibulum.
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reniaa
hi tenyears after this discussion is about the method of Jesus's death as the title indicates, why Jesus died is another discussion and your right it is more important.
Do witnesses have an alternative stake idol around their necks? or on their altars? that they burn incence too and sing songs about? No this indicates that they are all about why Jesus died and not how he died.
If you read my discussion with leolaia my main issue with cross is that it is a bad translation that assumes things beyond the original writers intention and substantially involved in idolatry a MAJOR sin in God's eyes.
Cross idol and using cross both happenned at the same time. when a shape was first associated with christians it was a fish, then it was a cross but not because of his death instrument but a x cross indicated by first greek letter in christ. Eventually this became the cross as the pagan romans prefered in their idol practises and we to adopted it as an idol for christians.
the truth is when the bible transaltions slipped in accuracy false practises also sneaked in at the same time allowed by these innaccuracies as in the case of 'cross',
If they had kept the word usage generic and non-indicative of actual shape would we have a cross in all our churches?
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reniaa
hi leolaia
When someone read an original translation from the first century reading the word stauros would they know it was an excecution instrument with a crossbeam as cross assumes or would they know it was a generis term like execution stake and didn't indicate what type of method or if crossbeam was used like torture stake which doesn't show a crossbeam was used?
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Leolaia
If you read my discussion leolaia my main issue with cross is that it is a bad translation that assumes things beyond the original writers intention and substantially involved in idolatry a MAJOR sin in God's eyes.
How do you know what the original writer intended? At least I point to things that point in the direction towards a patibulum. You presume that a stauros containing a patibulum lay "beyond the original writer's intention" when in fact this was the word very commonly referred to. This is like saying that a writer using the word "car" to refer to his vehicle could not possibly refer to a two-door car; the word could only refer to a four-door. As if the word "car" cannot refer to both! And idolatry has absolutely nothing to do with it. My goodness!
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reniaa
then you are saying leolaia that patibulum was the only method used then and stauros meant this method only and not cruz simplex?
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reniaa
I will say this leolaia that my own research into language used is xylon and stauros in both cases do not assume a crossbeam is used or indicate a crossbeam shape is used as 'cross' does. I do think Torture/execution stake is more accurate a rendition to original intention.
Are you sure you are not being influenced by secular evidence by saying patibulum was a popular method therefore they must have meant this by saying stauros?
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OUTLAW
Do witnesses have an alternative stake idol around their necks? or on their altars?. ..Jehovah`s Witness`s carry around Magazines with a Watchtower logo on them..They may as well wear a Watchtower Magazine around thier neck..Jehovah`s Witness`s also wear wear Watchtower Logo Jewlery..Through it`s insane rules and policies the WBT$ has killed more Jehovah`s Witness`s than any other organization on the Planet..And Jehovah`s Witness Promote the Watchtower and it`s logo at every opportunity......A cross is the symol for the death of Jesus.......The Watchtower logo is the symbol of thousands of JW deaths.............................that they burn incence too and sing songs about? No this indicates that they are all about why Jesus died and not how he died...Yet you have devoted your posts on this thread to how he died ..Your own words betray you once again..LOL!!
If you read my discussion leolaia my main issue with cross is that it is a bad translation that assumes things beyond the original writers intention and substantially involved in idolatry a MAJOR sin in God's eyes...Face it..Your too ill Educated to debate with Leolaia..Or most people on this board for that matter..LOL!!
Cross idol and using cross both happenned at the same time. when a shape was first associated with christians it was a fish, then it was a cross but not because of his death instrument but a x cross indicated by first greek letter in christ. Eventually this became the cross as the pagan romans prefered in their idol practises and we to adopted it as an idol for christians.
the truth is when the bible transaltions slipped in accuracy false practises also sneaked in at the same time allowed by these innaccuracies as in the case of 'cross',..There is no more inaccurate Bible than the NWT written by the WBT$
If they had kept the word usage generic and non-indicative of actual shape would we have a cross in all our churches?..Perhaps Leolaia can tell you which courses to take,so you can have an intellegent conversation with her..LOL!!.....................OUTLAW