I think the author of the Gospel had non-Jews in mind if we are being reasonable about it. I just think JWs would have answers to this objection to defend their view.
"And I have other sheep not of this fold..." PRESENT TENSE!!...i have questions
by oompa 16 Replies latest watchtower bible
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wobble
I agree Slimboy,but that is the JW way of understanding scripture,as used by Chuck Russell and Ratherfraud,i.e think of a doctrine and then make the scriptures seem to fit.
Oompa's method is much better,read the Scripture and use your reasoning power and knowledge of other bible verses to determine what it means.
Love
Wobble
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oompa
OTWO: "Okay, that makes sense. The Society understanding is more correct then. If many back then were invited, but not of the anointed caliber, then there is still room left for more anointed today."
Otwo...that was my exact point in an earlier thread i started.....the logical out for the 144k not being filled centuries ago is if the calling of both classes started in jesus day. Someone posted i shuould shut up or such as i was giving WT a good idea to keep the 144k going on for centuries more.
Still...any info on the OT hope of life after death?...was it 5k years of earthly hope...shut it down and have heavenly hope for 2k....start earthly hope again while shutting down heaven in 1935.....then in 2007 opening heaven again while keeping open paradise earth?......geeze this stuff is stoopid.....oompa
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Narkissos
they are gathered into the one fold with ONE hope
Strictly speaking, according to the text, they are not gathered into any "fold". V. 1 mentions only onesheepfold. The shepherd leads the sheep which were there out (v. 3f).
In v. 9a a different metaphor is introduced, that of the entrance door/gate: Whoever enters by me will be saved; the distinct (actually opposite) metaphors of salvation as entering and going out are combined in v. 9b: and will come in and go out and find pasture.
In v. 16 the "other sheep" are described as being "not from (ek) this fold". The "fold" is where they come from, not their destination. Neither are they said to be from another fold. You could as well (and, imo, better) picture them scattered (just like the "children of God" of 11:53). Their destination is becoming one flock, one shepherd with those from the (apparently unique) fold.
The idea of people being separated for two destinations (1 -> 2) is the exact opposite of what this text suggests (2 -> 1): cf. Ephesians 2:14f "in his flesh he has madeboth groups into one (ho poièsas ta amphotera hen) and has broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility between us. He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two(tous duo ktisè en autô eis hena kainon anthrôpon), thus making peace, and might reconcile both groups to God in one body (tous amphoterous en heni sômati) through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; for through him both of us have access in one Spirit (hoi amphoteroi en eni pneumati) to the Father. " Which gives some background to the affirmation of one hope (mia elpidi) among a series of "one(s)" (including "one body" and "one Spirit") in 4:3ff.
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the research lady
The other sheep spoken of in John 10:16 are in fact the Gentiles. In Luke 12:32 it is written "Have no fear, little flock,because Your Father has approved of giving You the Kingdom". The Watchtower has always used this scripture to try to prove that the number of those with a heavenly hope would be limited to 144,000, a "little"flock. However, this use of the term "little" does not mean in number. It is an endearing term used in the same way that John wrote in 1 John 2:1 when he said "little"children...The Bible does not hold out two hopes. No place will you find the term "paradise earth" in the Bible. But, you can read this statement made by Jesus in Matthew 23:12 "Woe to You, scribes an Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men:for You yourselves do not go in, neither do You permit those on their way in to go in".NWT
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tmo1965
and i don't even know why they came up with the 1935 timeline idea of paradise earth life starting up again.......how did they come up with this TIME of 1935??...why not just have said both groups had been called since jesus day...esp with John 10:16 sitting right there so simple..........oompa
Get the book: "30 Years A Watchtower Slave" by William J. Schnell. This book gives a very good 1st hand history of the formation of the Jehovah Witnesses. The author was a Bible Student in Germany and migrated to the US.
He gives his account of 1935 beginning the time for the earthly hope. To put it in a nutshell, the WTS had until that time preached that only their followers would go to heaven and the Bible predicts this by stating that 144,000 would go to heaven. Before 1935, the number of Bible Students was less than the 144,000. In the 1930s their numbers were rapidly increasing, if not exceeding the 144,000 count. So they invented the "other sheep" doctrine to cover up their faux pas. 1935 was also the year that they became Jehovah's Witnesses. That name was part of the new deal of having an earthly hope.
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Narkissos
tmo,
The name "Jehovah's witnesses" is from 1931, and for some time it did not apply to the Jonadabs. There was an interesting thread about this and related issues a few days ago: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/173226/1/motivations-for-creating-the-Jonadabs