I don't put faith in the Bible ... the Bible did not die for me. I put faith in Christ, of whom I was taught by my parents, Dominican Sisters, and the Catholic Church. The Bible is inspired and inspiring, but it is only a book. The Bible was not compiled until 400 years after Christ, and was not declared inspired until the 8th century by the Catholic Church. It is a relationship with God and Christ that counts ... not a book.
Why should I believe the Bible?
by wobble 49 Replies latest jw friends
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donny
The only reason I can see for believing the Bible is that you just want to believe it. Just doing research on how it came to be assembled should raise a lot of questions as to how serious it should be taken.
The New Testament books were written in Greek, an international language during this period of the Roman Empire. They were often passed on and read as single books or letters. For nearly three hundred years A.D. 100-400, the early Catholic church leaders and councils argued about which New Testament writings should be considered holy and treated with the same respect given to the Jewish Scriptures.
In A.D. 367, the bishop of Alexandria named Athanasius wrote a letter that listed the twenty-seven books he said Christians should consider authoritative. His list was accepted by most of the Christian churches, and the writings he named are the same twenty-seven books that today we call the New Testament.
The more research is done on how it was put together shows it was church politics and a lot of bickering and not the hand of a supreme being.
Don
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Narkissos
Just a side note to Chalam:
Do you really believe that the phrase "the word of God" in Hebrews 4:12 means "the Bible"?
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Chalam
Hi Narkissos,
The "word of God" is double edged.
Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version)
12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
The bible does that and so does the Holy Spirit.
It comes out of Jesus' mouth.
Revelation 1:16-18 (New International Version)
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Jesus is our judge and so is His Spirit.
To answer the question specifically about Hebrews 4:12 the word is the logos, which is most famously in John 1, Jesus, of God is theos which is obviously the Father.
Whether you count the bible as the "word of God" depends on who you think God is and if you believe this is true or not.
2 Timothy 3:16 (New International Version)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed
All the best,
Stephen
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Narkissos
Stephen,
I doubt jumping to Revelation, the Gospel of John and the Second epistle to Timothy is a great help in understanding Hebrews 4. I don't know if you were ever a JW (sorry if you told that before, I missed it) but your methodology in "patchwork quoting" is awfully reminiscent of theirs.
In context, "the word of God" (ho logos tou theou) is that which the Israelites heard in the wilderness (v. 2, ho logos tès akouès, lit. "the word of hearing," i.e. the message they heard); it is a voice (phonè, 3:7,15; 4:7), not a written text (although the whole passage is a discussion of Psalm 95).
In your mind "the Bible" and "the word of God" seem to be interchangeable phrases, but ironically in the Bible itself they are not.
Btw you might also wonder what is the "scripture" the author of 2 Timothy referred to as "inspired by God". Did he include what he was writing? Hardly if "Timothy" was supposed to know it from early childhood (v. 15)...
Earlier in this thread I suggested that believing was not a necessary condition to read and enjoy the Bible. I should have added that it is not a sufficient condition to understand it either...
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PrimateDave
Wobble, you are most welcome. I'm glad I could help.
Nice to see you posting here, Narkissos! As always I am in awe of your knowledge.
Dave
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Chalam
Hi Narkossis,
No I am not or have never been a JW-you asked before.
I don't know why you have such a problem with Systematic theology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Malachi 3:6 (New International Version)
6 "I the LORD do not change.Hebrews 13:8 (New International Version)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Theology is the study of God and as He is immutable (cannot change), you can jump around the bible as much as you like when studying Him.
I do not mean to be rude or contentious but please consider carefully what you have written here.
Earlier in this thread I suggested that believing was not a necessary condition to read and enjoy the Bible. I should have added that it is not a sufficient condition to understand it either...
1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International Version)
14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Are you reading the bible as a history or text book or a spiritual book? Are you born-again i.e. have the Spirit of God as your guide or are you leaning on your own understanding?
Proverbs 3:5-6 (New International Version)
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;6 in all your ways acknowledge him
All the best,
Stephen
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parakeet
He was brought up as a Witness by us,never baptised,but read the Bible as little as a Witness does,since leaving (in his twenties) I don't think he has opened one, or has the interest so to do.
I was brought up as a Witness and had the Bible forced down my gullet for 14 years until I left in my twenties. I have hardly opened the Bible since or had the interest to do so.
I also have a son, 30 years old. I brought him up as an open-minded atheist. He had, in contrast to mine, a happy childhood and adolescence. He went to university and obtained a degree and a very good job. He is happily married, and he and his wife had their first child last year. I couldn't be prouder of him.
I wouldn't dream of trying to manipulate my son into believing the Bible or anything else because (1) I respect his beliefs or lack of them and (2) he's a GROWN MAN and can make his own decisions now.
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parakeet
abbagail: You won't be laughing when it all comes crashing down on your disbelieving little head. So suit yourself.
There it is, in all its shining Christian glory. The fundies' ace in the hole. Their raison d'etre.
You have no love in your heart, just a lust for vengeance against anyone whose beliefs, or lack of them, differ from yours.
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Narkissos
No I am not or have never been a JW-you asked before.
Oh did I? Make it double sorry then. :) I did check your profile before asking (this time), but it was empty. I didn't remember our past exchange (my fault), but I suspected you weren't anyway (now I got some more background from http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/149836/3/Own-up-time). Bible-believing ex-JWs rarely go quoting the Bible as much as you do (because they have already done too much of that before). Although I appreciate that you have done it kindly and peacefully so far, from what I have read of your posts.
I don't have any problem with systematic theology per se (yes I know what it is, and I didn't learn it from Wikipedia). I'm just wary about mixing it with exegesis (as both systematic theologians and exegetes usually are).
you can jump around the bible as much as you like when studying Him.
Sounds like the ideal motto for terrible theology and exegesis.
Are you reading the bible as a history or text book or a spiritual book?
Can't it be both?
Are you born-again i.e. have the Spirit of God as your guide or are you leaning on your own understanding?
Same question.
I'm not evading your personal question. If you are interested in my history and current stance about religion (God, Bible, Christianity) you can read my profile and make your own judgement.
But, if I may ask, aren't you interested at all in what the texts you read and quote from the Bible actually mean, in context (without "jumping")? Don't you care at all if Hebrews 4:12 is not about "the Bible," or 2 Timothy 3:16 about the New Testament (neither is it exactly about the OT btw)? I have made a few (gently) provocative assertions which might turn into important questions for you: for instance, does the Bible (let's say by the Protestant canon) define itself as "the Word of God"? -- If it did, it would be a circular argument, but that's not my point. My question is, does it?