Does Roman Catholicism Teach The "Truth"? (page 17)

minimus

Ann, I believe you're a very sweet person.

mouthy

Really, who gives a shit whether others agree or not?

When the religion has done ME & Mine wrong I give a shit....

I will stand up & tell the WRONG it did ME!!!! Do you mind?????

I wont suffer in silence The JWs ,Catholic, Coonities,All screwd me & messed up my family

I have to leave you all too it. Because I am VERY TICKED Now.

coffee_black

Ok...here's my take on it. There is no offense intended...so please understand that I say this with love.

I agree that religion has been the cause of horrific problems and divisions throughout history. In my opinion it is because it has such massive potential for abuse. Power hungry people tend to gravitate to positions that can give them power over others. On the other extreme, many feel safer, somehow, when they can give over their spirituality to a group, or leader, and they surrender their trust to that entity. That, to me, is a blueprint for tragedy. The only one who I surrender to is Jesus. Churches are one category of groups where that kind of power exists. There are some wonderful pastors and priests…and much good can be done through a church. Much harm can be done as well….so one has to keep one’s eyes open at all times.

A Christian is simply a follower of Christ. It is when you identify yourself first as a Baptist or a Catholic or any other division …..that the focus changes and problems start. When one identifies themselves with a set of doctrines, or a certain leader other than Christ, the focus changes. For example, ask yourself… Why would a church be called St Peter’s, or St Catherine’s etc.? Why is a Christian Church named after anyone other than Christ?

There is a Catholic Church here that is still conducted in Latin, and women are required to wear a veil. I find that appalling. First of all, why would I go to a church where I can not understand what is being said? What’s the purpose of that? How much can be learned there? I’m told it’s tradition. In this case I clearly see that tradition is being made more important than the message. It should not be so. Secondly, the veil…. I’m told it is an effort to return to the tradition of the time of Christ, where women wore veils. Well if that is so, then why are men not required to wear prayer shawls? Why are women singled out? In Jesus time, women did not cut their hair. Why not impose that as well?. To me it appears to have the same origin and purpose as the burqa. It’s just a matter of degree. It is meant to make women feel more unworthy…and less than a man. Reminds me of wearing a hankie on my head when having to do a job a man would normally do at the kh. Blech!

My questions for the Catholic Church are:

Why name Christian Churches after anyone but Christ?
What is the Biblical basis for praying to Mary or saints?
What is the Biblical basis for the costumes and the formality? In my reading of the New Testament I find early Christian gatherings to be much simpler and pretty informal. Matt 23:5 talks about the fine garments the scribes and Pharisees wore…doesn’t sound like Jesus approved. In fact, I don’t think Jesus himself was too concerned about his own garments…nor does it appear that the apostles were either.
What is the Biblical basis for the “Hail Mary” repetitive recitals and the rosary beads?
Why do you call priests “Father” when Jesus clearly said not to? Matt 23::9

When I left the jws. I promised myself that I would no longer be a follower of men. I will no longer give any other human authority over my personal relationship with God. It is between Him and me. I don’t look to man for spiritual answers. When the answers come from men, they are subject to change anyway. What Jesus actually taught was quite simple. I have no trouble understanding any of it. Men have been arguing over those teachings for two millennia. Men want to make it complicated so you have to look to them for the answers. Not falling for it. I go right to the source….

Simply put: Knowledge puffs up, love builds up. 1 Cor. 8:1

When you stand before your creator, you stand as an individual, not a group. Do you really think you are going to impress God with your knowledge? Do you really think He is going to judge you by your having all the “ right” answers or “right” doctrine? Do you think he will give you a quiz to see if you have it all figured out or that you found the “right church”? Not me. While I love to worship with other Christians, I just see them as other people, just like me… not as my path to God. The path to God is through Jesus.

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, but through me.”

Notice He did not mention a church here. To me, the church Jesus did talk about on other occasions was just made up simply by His followers….organized or not…wherever they are.

Jesus likened our relationship with God to that a father and child. To me that is a description of our relationship with God My father didn’t love or judge me on the basis of how much I knew about him. In fact, I knew precious little about him when I was a small child. (I didn’t understand, for example, what he did for a living, or the daily battles he faced) What I did know was that I could trust him, and that he loved me, and that he would move heaven and earth to protect me. As I grew up I learned more about him. I rebelled against his authority as a teenager. His love never failed me though. He was always there whenever I needed him. He stood by me as long as he lived. No one stood between us. I know that not everyone has that kind of relationship with their father. But for me, my relationship with my dad shows what a relationship with God is all about, just as Jesus said. I am my father’s daughter. I am also a child of God.

For those who think that I’m just out here on my own… that is just what the elders said to me when I challenged them. No, I am not alone. God is my constant companion. If every church on the planet disappeared, my relationship with Him is unaffected.

I had no intention of this being so long…so I’ll end it here.

Coffee

mouthy

I wish I had said all that Thanks Coffee my thoughts exactly..
Your kinder & more Christian than I

BurnTheShips

There is a Catholic Church here that is still conducted in Latin.

One of the masses at my church is the Tridentine (Latin) mass. It is held in the chapel (smaller than the main church). Those that want to go to the traditional mass go, and the rest come to the mass in English. Some Catholics enjoy the traditional Mass. We also have a mass given in Spanish. From what I understand, the readings and the homily are given in English. It is the "Mass part" itself that is done in Latin. Everyone understands all the parts and what they mean. I have been thinking of going myself just to experience the Latin mass. My Jewish friends go to synagogue, a large part of their liturgy is held in their liturgical language: Hebrew. Is this evil? I have been to a Maronite (Lebanese) rite church, and the Lebanese Catholic liturgy is in Aramaic. The old Roman Catholic rite was of course in Latin. Many Eastern Catholic churches have their mass rites in Greek, just like many of the Orthodox do.

My questions for the Catholic Church are:

Why name Christian Churches after anyone but Christ?

Why not? It was always simply the Church. The Catholic (universal) Church, before Christianity started to be divided. Walk into a Catholic church and look behind the altar, you will always see an image of Jesus there.

What is the Biblical basis for praying to Mary or saints?

What is the Biblical basis for the costumes and the formality? In my reading of the New Testament I find early Christian gatherings to be much simpler and pretty informal. Matt 23:5 talks about the fine garments the scribes and Pharisees wore…doesn’t sound like Jesus approved. In fact, I don’t think Jesus himself was too concerned about his own garments…nor does it appear that the apostles were either.

What is the Biblical basis for the “Hail Mary” repetitive recitals and the rosary beads?

Our worship is not 100% contained in the Bible, despite this, it is not against the Bible. There is nothing wrong with this. The Bible is not a comprehensive compendium of Christian teaching. It was never mean to be, it was always a collection of books written to those who already believed. Also, as Catholics, we believe that the Church is a continuation of Israel. Paul wrote of this in Romans. We are grafted in. We see that the worship of Israel also included liturgical garments, and ritual. The first Christians met in Synagogues (until they were cast out) and the sacred liturgy is a continuation of the liturgy of the Jews of the time of Jesus. In fact, they are remarkably similar in many ways, as I myself have experienced from visiting synagogues and temples.

Let me ask you. Where does the Bible say that it is the only rule of the Christian faith? Another question: which body decided what books were to compose the Christian Bible and which do not?

Why do you call priests “Father” when Jesus clearly said not to? Matt 23::9

Due to a lack of time, I will simply point you to this link.

Maybe one of the other Catholics on this board can respond to the rest of your posting. But as a Catholic, my relationship with God is no less direct than yours.

BTS

yesidid

Thank you Coffee. Your post was very compelling.

It would take pages to list the problems in the Catholic Church.

I thought of doing it but quite frankly do not have the interest.

Thinking of, and doing positive things is more appealing to me.

And to get one thing straight...............I am talking about the Church and it's teachings not the misguided followers.

I have Catholic friends I love dearly, just as I love misguided JW frineds and relatives.

yesidid

coffee_black

Thanks BTS. I am sure your relationship with God is as direct as mine. I am not implying otherwise. My boyfriend is a Catholic, and we go to Mass sometimes. I do not doubt the sincerity. I can worship there as well as anywhere... including under the stars.

Another question: which body decided what books were to compose the Christian Bible and which do not?

I know that the Catholic Church had a major role in deciding what to include in the Bible. I am not sure I agree with their choices. Maybe all of the original texts should be included....I think that's a matter of control. As a Christian I would like access to all of the information available about Christ. It has only been in recent years that that information has become available. Please don't take offense, but that question reminded me of jws who ask "well just where did you get your Bible knowledge from"? I do not think the Bible is the only rule for Christian faith. I believe Holy Spirit guides a Christian....and that is more about a Relationship with God than about written words.

I would still like to know where the origin of praying to Mary and the saints comes from. You didn't really explain that... did they just decide it was ok to do that? How did that come about?

I believe in an afterlife too. I have Christian loved ones who have died. I don't pray to them though.

I still don't understand why one would name a Christian Church by another name than Christ. Isn't that in itself a way to honor a man rather than God? Doesn't that divide? 1 Cor 1"|: 12 Some of you are saying, "I am a follower of Paul." Others are saying, "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Peter ,*" or "I follow only Christ ." 2 13 Can Christ be divided into pieces? Was I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul?"

Why cloud the issue? It is not Peter or Paul or anyone other than Christ who gives salvation. My opinion... but that has always bothered me.

I didn't say that a service conducted in Latin is evil. I am saying that it is pointless to go to a service where you can't understand what is being said. I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood. The kids went to Hebrew school...and learned the language. So when they went to Temple, they understood what was being said. Comparing that to a Christian service conducted in Latin doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't understanding the message important?

No comment on the veil?

I'll go to your link about calling a priest Father in a little while. Just had dinner... going to relax a while.

Coffee

Amazing

Coffee_black,

On the other extreme, many feel safer, somehow, when they can give over their spirituality to a group, or leader, and they surrender their trust to that entity. That, to me, is a blueprint for tragedy. The only one who I surrender to is Jesus.

Excellent ... this is why I returned to Catholicism ... I no longer surrender my trust to an entity as a Catholic ... only to Christ. Unfortunately, too many people superimpose Watchtower-ism upon Catholicism ... a very unfortunate misunderstanding. I appreciate the kind way that you dealt with the above issue ... I just feel the clarification is important.

I am not sure I agree with their choices. Maybe all of the original texts should be included....I think that's a matter of control. As a Christian I would like access to all of the information available about Christ.

They are available ... and it is not a matter of control ... the Church and scholars debated for centuries, between the 4th and 8th century as to what should be considered inspired text or not. It was the Catholic Church that decided that the NT should be compiled, as no one else was going to do it. It was not about control - that is a myth of those that dislike the Church. However, ALL of the information is available, either through the Church on line, in their literal libraries, or you can get it from non-Catholic sources. When you see the other gospels and and epistles, you can see why Rome and Constantinople excluded them. The Gospel of Thomas is my favorite example of a good reason why it should not be in the Bible.

Also, The King James Bible removed seven books that Rome has in the Bible (and are still there) so you need to read the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible to get these additional books. The KJ originally had the extra books, and removed them in a subsequent revision in 1611AD. Rome is hiding nothing nor making it hard to get if you want it.

Thanks.

StAnn

Coffee, I'd be happy to answer every one of your questions, if you're really interested. But would you like me to do them here or to PM you? I don't know that everyone else wants to read through the answers. If they are really interested, I'd be happy to post the answers here.

Just let me know.

St. Ann

Robdar

Robdar, you obviously don't read what I say about JWs. They don't have the truth either. Oh, but I can't say that because I don't know who has "The Truth".
I know when something is wrong or untrue. I don't need to know what absolute truth and right is in order to make my first statement.
I could look at a forgery and say it isn't true, real. I don't have to be an art expert to make that truthful statement,

Sure, babe. Whatever.

Does Roman Catholicism Teach The "Truth"?

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