by Confession 25 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
I was hoping that comments could be focused on the original, primary point made. Could you try to make specific comments about the following...
-If it's horribly wrong for the Watchtower Society (or any other organization) not to report child sexual abuse, is it not every bit as horribly wrong for an individual not to report?
I think the comments do relate to the original point broadly. There is a debate about whether a person or organisation should take this into their own hands or whether there is another way - encouraging the victim to report it where possible depending on the age of the young person, or a parent. Earlier in the thread mention was also made about the decision to report being perhaps the responsibility of the parent in the first instance. If the parent or child will not report it, it may be difficult for the authorities to obtain evidence in order to prosecute. I think this is all relevant. How focused do you want it to be? Just a yes or no in answer to your question or is there some wiggle room for debate here? :)
I suppose this is a reason why some of us stop posting here as much as we used to. Certainly we love to see the flow of new contributors, since generally it means more and more JWs are starting to "figure it out," or at least more and more people are finding a forum to discuss things JW-related.
Some of the things being discussed in this thread are things that have played out over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again... I think longtime contributors (including those who are familiar with the work of Silent Lambs) would agree that the position ex-JWs, JW reformers and/or child abuse activists take is that the Watchtower Society (along with many other religious organizations) has been a "pedophile paradise." They have historically discouraged--and even threatened--members from reporting abuse to the authorities. When I was an elder in the mid to late 90s, we were instructed "neither to encourage nor discourage" reporting, but there has been consistent pressure not to do anything that might reflect badly on "Jehovah's Organization."
Further, the consensus has been that pressure should be placed on the WTS to inform the abused and their parents of their absolute right and responsibility to report--and that congregations themselves should do so. It is recognized that any religious body has the right to hold their own judicial hearings on such matters, but that it is NO REPLACEMENT for reporting abuse to qualified law enforcement officials.
So forgive please my interest in not re-examining already played out subjects. If you still want to discuss who should report and other things associated with it, that's fine. But in this thread I'm hoping to focus comments--not broadly--but specifically on the original, primary point.
For those ex-JWs who have taken the rightfully strong position that organizations must inform the legal authorities when they discover pedophilia among their members... For those who have a history of righteous indignation toward the WTS over this issue...do you have a separate set of standards for individuals who similarly fail to report? Or shouldn't they be held just as accountable?
I'm really wondering why so few, longtime board contributors don't want to touch this one.
Hey Confession
I most definitely agree that individuals that don't report abuse (in this case of the WT vs individuals) are every bit as responsible -more so in my mind as they have first hand knowledge of the crimes.
I think that this falls most heavily in the laps of the elders. (not pushing blame at you at 31) They have accepted a posisiton of responsibility with full knowledge that they would be faced with situations such as these. Of course the WT is at fault too, as they assign these positions of responsibility to 20 and 30-year olds with absolutely no training whatsoever. But if someone (elder) is hearing these stories and the victims have come to them to be taken care of, the primary responsibility is to the victims and the elderrs should go to the police. The Neuremburg defense doesn't hold water... everyone knows that...
well- my 2c.
-K
An individual has just as much responsibility to report as the org. It is actually the individual that is closest to the abuse.
I have only been heard of one instance of child molestation while in the jws. While working at the convention, a young child was brought into first aid because someone had molested them.
The child was whisked away so fast, I did not see them clearly. I did inquire about the child and the elders assured me the authorities were being notified and the child was being cared for.
It was the first day of the convention and I expected them to make an announcement that a child molester had been caught and parents should be extra cautious with their children. Nothing was announced.
I enquired again and I was told it was an "outsider" who had abused the child and he was turned into the police. I was also told not to mention it to others, but I did discuss it with a few of those close to me.
I never heard or saw any reports in the news, but it might not have been newsworthy. I really don't believe it was ever reported, but hushed up instead, but I can't prove it.
When you are dealing with child molestation, you are in murky waters from the start. My personal belief is that every case should be reported by any individual that knows the situation and the child should receive the proper care. There should be zero tolerance by organizations and individuals.
Rebel8 said, "An adult is more aware of the ramifications of this and is less vulnerable to manipulation."
Well, sorta... Keeping in mind that we are discussing a cultish religion (to say the least), one must look at the frequent denigration of women within the WTBTS, especially in the idealized examples presented in their literature. Look at the situation in Malawi, where Witness women were raped for not purchasing political cards, while Mexican brothers were allowed to bribe officials, claim service in the military, and carry around a card that stated they were, in effect, in the army. This is an overarching example of sexual victimization done to adult women via the WTBTS's skewed value system and manipulation.
GrommitSK said, "In the case of abuse against adults I think it is for the victim to decide who they talk to."
Personally, I would report a rape (of an adult) reported to me or discussed with me (I would inform the victim of my choice to do so) because rapists, like child molesters, rarely stop after one victim. Getting away with a crime can be a tremendous 'high', and usually only encourages the rapist to continue doing so. If you throw in the added element of the (assuming we are talking about a Jehovah's Witness rapist) WTBTS's implied right to domineer women/girls, you have the potential for a repeat rapist who thinks it's his God-given right to treat women any way he wants to. Informing the police would at least alert them to be watchful of the accused rapist, even if the victim (adult female manipulated by cult mentality/groupthink) is hesistant or reluctant to do so.
Having said all of that, a rape reported second-hand?? The alleged victim's fleshly sister comes to me and says, "You won't believe what Brother Ravager did to my sister! He dragged her into the women's bathroom while they were cleaning the hall and raped her!"
What do I do here??? Go to the police??? Second-hand information isn't worth diddlly-squat. Go to Sister Abused and ask her??? "Your sister, Sister Bigmouth, said...." Yeah, that'd work.... Sheesh! Life is complicated! I guess I'd report it to the police anyway, but when I mentioned that the info was third-hand - they'd tear up the report sheet... Zid
Hi Kudra...
"I most definitely agree that individuals that don't report abuse (in this case of the WT vs individuals) are every bit as responsible -more so in my mind as they have first hand knowledge of the crimes. I think that this falls most heavily in the laps of the elders."
I thought we were in agreement toward the beginning of the above piece, but now I'm not so sure. So let me make my question even more obvious...
Situation #1) A child is molested within the JW organization, and because of institutional rules and manipulation, the congregation fails to report.
Situation #2) A child in no way attached to any religious organization whatsoever is molested, and the parent (who is in full possession of his/her mental faculties and understands the potential ramifications) fails to report.
Will you hold the parent in Situation #2 every bit as accountable as the congregation in Situation #1? Or not?
Choosing Life wrote...
"When you are dealing with child molestation, you are in murky waters from the start. My personal belief is that every case should be reported by any individual that knows the situation and the child should receive the proper care. There should be zero tolerance by organizations and individuals."
I'm with you.
Zid wrote...
"Having said all of that, a rape reported second-hand?? The alleged victim's fleshly sister comes to me and says, "You won't believe what Brother Ravager did to my sister! He dragged her into the women's bathroom while they were cleaning the hall and raped her!"
What do I do here??? Go to the police??? Second-hand information isn't worth diddlly-squat. Go to Sister Abused and ask her??? "Your sister, Sister Bigmouth, said...." Yeah, that'd work.... Sheesh! Life is complicated! I guess I'd report it to the police anyway, but when I mentioned that the info was third-hand - they'd tear up the report sheet..."
Right, again, I understand how you might not be trusted or believed. But, also again, if you really think about it, the congregation is in the same position as you are, right? The congregation is only getting it third hand. Usually no elder was an actual eyewitness. In this way your reporting is the same as theirs. Of course the good news is...
-If you make a report, the police can at least look into it. This might move the eyewitness/parent to come forward and deal with it.
-Even if you make a report that cannot be prosecuted, the police can at least have a record of alleged "prior bad acts," to be used in the future if and when another such report comes to them.
"Even if you make a report that cannot be prosecuted, the police can at least have a record of alleged "prior bad acts," to be used in the future if and when another such report comes to them."
One would assume so, right?? Unfortunately, even a report will not be filed in some cases - for example, this subsequent situation which regards cruelty to animals, not rape... I left my little hamsters with a family that I thought was trustworthy. They were to care for them for two weeks (the son was, under the supervision of his parents. He was 13 years old...) and the son was to be paid $60 for his work.
I was horrifically devastated to find upon my return that they had neither fed nor watered my poor little babies for TWO WEEKS!!! I had kept in contact with the son via phone, and he kept assuring me that they were 'all right'. The mother and two of her sons died. I still have the last remaining son/hamster - he's over two years old - Dwarf Siberian hamster.
I spoke to a police officer in the city that this happened in. I was going to see that they were prosecuted to the fullest extent possible. Unfortunately, since these were tiny hamsters, the officer refused to even fill out a report.
Cruelty to animals is a felony in this state, by the way... But without extensive evidence, they had no chance of winning the case. No report was filed, either. That is the nightmare scenario that I fear in the sort of situations mentioned above, regarding rape/child molestation. But I'd still try to report it... Zid
Ziddina. Interesting perspective. I don't agree wrt to adults. It would be far better to get consent from the victim. Taking control out of their hands is not the way to treat someone who has been violated unless you personally witnessed it. Remember the person in front of you is a real victim - what may or may not happen next is only hypothetical at this stage. Unless you actually witnessed the offence reporting it to the Police without the victim's consent will only force the victim to recount their experience to the Police. I don't think anyone has the right to do that.
Wrt to kids I think the Parents are the ones to deal with it in the first instance.If they don't and won't be pursuaded then I'd call the cops, again unless I personally witnessed it in which case I would intervene, make sure the child was safe and call the cops.
Going back to the original point: if we know someone has been violated (and I mean KNOW) then our first priority should be the victim. Part of the victim's healing process would often be coming to terms with what has happened. If I witnessed the event I would get the Police involved straight away. If the offence is reported to me by the victim or the offender it is best if they report it. I don't believe that failing to report is the same thing as committing the offence, they are different issues but both serious.
