Do you think you have 'chosen sides'?

by AK - Jeff 54 Replies latest jw friends

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  AK - Jeff

  Chalam - I disagree.

  Just as beer is what it is. There is no 'meaning' behind beer. It just is - to be enjoyed, wasted, used, drank, or applied as liniment. However it is used affects not at all it's existence. Not everthing has to have meaning or purpose to be.

  I have often stepped out into a beautiful day and announced it to be 'the real meaning behind life - enjoying what it is'. Why is it circular to assume that life is for living?

  Your blood has a purpose - to keep you alive. When you die - it dies. Nothing more than that. Why is living life for life itself circular thought?

  Jeff
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  OnTheWayOut

  What if it is all meaningless?

  If so, nothing really matters. There is no truth, no right or wrong, no good or evil, no value in life, no afterlife, no God.

  That is a single short philosophical question for you to take what you get from it. You choose to say that "nothing really matters."
  In some ways, I agree. But it means to me that I have to take what matters to me and make it my life.
  To me, there is still truth. But it's not a religious truth. Evil is intentional harm to others, value comes from assigning value from within.
  I have to go along with the "no afterlife, no God" part, but we'll see (or not) when we are dead and have no more opportunities to get "meaning" or value out of our lives.

  Thanks for sharing your philosophy. I understand your sarcastic question and know that you don't feel it is all meaningless. In many ways, both sides of that question get to the same or similar philosophies.

  Or What kind of meaning is there in a life defending or searching for meaning?

  If we are not here by chance, then that explains a lot of things to me, why I feel there is value in life, why I do feel there is good and evil, why I do think there is truth and falsehood, why I do see there is more to this life that even the years we have on this planet. I believe that good is worth defending as is truth which is what actually is the meaning to life.

  Good is worth defending to those that want to defend it. In my philosophical question, I ask about using the entire value of a life to defend the search for meaning, not to defend good or truth. In other words, a JW spends his life defending his beliefs just so he feels he has value in life. It is possible to just focus on the defending and not live the life, looking for persecution or arguments to prove one's righteousness or value.
  
  Another waste of a life searching for meaning is exemplified in THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY: A group of hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings demand to learn the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything from the supercomputer, Deep Thought, specially built for this purpose. It takes Deep Thought 7½ million years to compute and check the answer, which turns out to be 42. Unfortunately, The Ultimate Question itself is unknown. When asked to produce The Ultimate Question, the computer says that it cannot.

  What if the meaning in life is the life itself?

  That is circular reasoning and makes no logical sense. However, see below!

  What if life is about making the most of life?

  I assume this question is an extension of the previous one? If so, I agree, there is value in life and we need to make the most of it.

  You already figured out what I was going for. The first question needs the second question, then decide for yourself what it means.
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  OnTheWayOut

  Speaking of THE HITCH-HIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY and of meaning in life, I am reminded of some words from that book.

  There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

  There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

  There is a third theory which suggests that both of the first two theories were concocted by a wily editor of The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy in order to increase the universal level of uncertainty and paranoia and so boost the sales of the Guide. This last theory is of course the most convincing as The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy is the only book in the whole of the known universe to have the words DON'T PANIC inscribed in large friendly letters on the cover.

  I am reminded of this, and don't just state it to promote philosophy based on The Hitch-Hiker's Guide, but to tie in The Bible. It seems to me that the collection of the Bible came to be used in just that manner. The theories on life and the universe and everything, from the Bible, seem to promote the Bible itself, and the religionists who are explaining the theories on life and the universe and everything. While DON'T PANIC is not on the cover of the Bible, it's a secondary theme to OBEY GOD.

  This philosophical moment was brought to you by Jerry in Chicago. Please send donations today.
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  Chalam

  I love the Hitch Hiker's Guide To The Galaxy. Read the books and watched the original UK series in my youth :)

  Of course the answer to the "great question" is 42! Just need to define the question with some "Deep Thought" :)

  Wow that series is Divinely inspired. I need to check the US remake and see how that fares some time.

  Now, to the beer!

  Just as beer is what it is. There is no 'meaning' behind beer. It just is - to be enjoyed, wasted, used, drank, or applied as liniment. However it is used affects not at all it's existence. Not everthing has to have meaning or purpose to be.

  I disagree, beer is a gift from God so it has meaning and purpose. He mentions it plenty in the bible. To enjoy it, not to get blasted or things usually turn ugly.

  That said, beer is dead but I am alive. Beer cannot think for itself but I can. Beer has no conscience but I do. Beer cannot procreate but I can. Beer has no soul but I have. Beer cannot make a choice but I can...

  I have often stepped out into a beautiful day and announced it to be 'the real meaning behind life - enjoying what it is'. Why is it circular to assume that life is for living?

  Nothing. This is what I found to be circular "What if the meaning in life is the life itself?"

  Your blood has a purpose - to keep you alive. When you die - it dies. Nothing more than that.

  I understand. However, the issue is not the blood, but what it represents, life itself (and death).

  Do you believe life to be important and has meaning or it is really all meaningless?

  Do you fear death? If so, why is that? Surely once we are dead we have served our purpose and we cease to exist, nothing more?

  Important questions. Needs some serious consideration and "deep thought".

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  AK - Jeff

  Do you believe life to be important and has meaning or it is really all meaningless?

  Doesn't matter what I believe. Beliefs are just opinions. Opinions are of no value in this discussion. Proof cannot be shown by you that there is more than what we have. Other than quoting an ancient book with significant issues as to authenticity, you have shown me nothing more than circular reason that goes like this:

  The Bible tells me that God made me with purpose. Since God spoke it in the Bible I must believe it, even though the only evidence that God ever spoke it at all is in the Bible itself. And since I believe in God [since the Bible tells me so] I must also believe the Bible, as it is God's word.

  Do you fear death? If so, why is that? Surely once we are dead we have served our purpose and we cease to exist, nothing more?

  I don't relish death - but neither do I fear it. Death means the end. No one wants it to end. But that does not suggest that it won't.

  Tecumseh said "Seek to make your life long and it's purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day you go over the great divide." Why is this so bad?

  Leave a positive legacy and accept that whatever is on the other side - we have no control one way or the other. If you turn into dust forever - so be it. All the hopeful belief in a group of little books written by self proclaimed prophets and holymen will not change any of that.

  Dogs don't like to die. Neither do people. But your own Holy-book states that the end result for man is the same as beast. Ecclesiastes I believe. Why do you chose to dwell on the opinions of Paul and others that life would go on after - when much opinion in the OT suggests otherwise?

  Jeff
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  Chalam

  Do you believe life to be important and has meaning or it is really all meaningless?

  Doesn't matter what I believe. Beliefs are just opinions. Opinions are of no value in this discussion. Proof cannot be shown by you that there is more than what we have. Other than quoting an ancient book with significant issues as to authenticity, you have shown me nothing more than circular reason that goes like this:

  The Bible tells me that God made me with purpose. Since God spoke it in the Bible I must believe it, even though the only evidence that God ever spoke it at all is in the Bible itself. And since I believe in God [since the Bible tells me so] I must also believe the Bible, as it is God's word.

  Jeff, you have side stepped the question thought! Do you believe life to be important and has meaning or it is really all meaningless?

  Do you fear death? If so, why is that? Surely once we are dead we have served our purpose and we cease to exist, nothing more?

  I don't relish death - but neither do I fear it. Death means the end. No one wants it to end. But that does not suggest that it won't.

  I agree. However, most people do fear death i.e. life ending, suggesting it has meaning and is important, also the uncertainty of what happens after death.

  Tecumseh said "Seek to make your life long and it's purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day you go over the great divide." Why is this so bad?

  I don't find it is, I find it very biblical. It is interesting he talks about crossing over the "great divide" as opposed to "ceasing to exist" or similar.

  Luke 16:26 (New International Version)

  26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

  John 5:24 (New International Version)

  24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

  Leave a positive legacy and accept that whatever is on the other side - we have no control one way or the other. If you turn into dust forever - so be it. All the hopeful belief in a group of little books written by self proclaimed prophets and holymen will not change any of that.

  I agree. It is about God and what He says. If the prophets and books line up with Him then what they say is important.

  Dogs don't like to die. Neither do people. But your own Holy-book states that the end result for man is the same as beast. Ecclesiastes I believe. Why do you chose to dwell on the opinions of Paul and others that life would go on after - when much opinion in the OT suggests otherwise?

  Now we are getting somewhere. Why is a dog different to a bottle of beer?

  What have you got in the OT that points to this? Annihilationism - Theopedia

  These should be enough to cause you to seek the truth here

  Isaiah 66:24 (New International Version)

  24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

  Daniel 12:2 (New International Version)

  2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

  Jeremiah 23:39-40 (New International Version)

  39 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your fathers. 40 I will bring upon you everlasting disgrace—everlasting shame that will not be forgotten."

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  Chalam

  Hi Jeff,

  I just need to comment on this

  Ecclesiastes I believe.

  So do I but not the WT teaching on Ecc 9:5! The WT are full of lies and deceit. Do you expect their teaching on this verse to be true? As I said to you before, you need to ask the Lord to help you erase the WT teaching from your mind and let Him show you what the truth is. That is, if you really are sincere about His point of view.

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  drwtsn32

  Do you believe life to be important and has meaning or it is really all meaningless?

  False dichotomy.

  Another option: life is important but without meaning. (And by "meaning" I believe you are saying life is here for a specific purpose.)
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  Chalam

  False dichotomy.

  Could be but not necessarily. In logic, the answer to how this falls depends on truth. My belief is the statement is true dichotomy.

  Anyhow. let's consider all the options:

  1. Life is important and has meaning.

  2. Life is important but without meaning.

  3. Life is unimportant but has meaning.

  4. Life is unimportant and is without meaning.

  My intuition suggests 2 and 3 are wrong. My belief agrees also!

  So I am back to a correlation with life meaning something, option 1 or it being unimportant and meaning nothing, 4.

  As I find life inherently valuable I find it must actually be meaningful.

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  drwtsn32

  My intuition suggests 2 and 3 are wrong. My belief agrees also!

  No shock that you feel that way. :)

  I do not believe life has "meaning" in the sense that we are here because of the will of some higher power.

  That being said, I certainly believe life is important, valuable, and has "meaning" in other senses of the word. I think most people feel this way, unless they are perhaps suicidal. Of course the "meaning" we each apply to our lives varies depending on other beliefs.