Take a deep breath Jeff....breathhh, breathhh. That's good...color is returning.
The Fundamentals of God, Liberal Sensitivities and the Judgment of Sin
by Perry 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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BurnTheShips
Perry, I respect your views, but your dodging around isn't very helpful to your argument. I basically quit this thread because of it.
If you said, "I believe it because I believe it", it would be more honest. But when you say, "I believe it because it is the only right and reasonable interpretation and all others are wrong" yet fail to openly respond to challenges to your interpretation, it is not intellectually honest.
BTS
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mindmelda
I never viewed the Witnesses as fundamentalists, because in part, that entails seeking literal political expression for one's religious beliefs.
But, perhaps the only way they ARE liberal in doctrine is in that they believe "truth" is a gradual thing, and flexible.
The only problem is, the exposure of doctrinal truth is carefully limited to the elite, the rank and file have no participation in this discovery, for that would be chaotic and they are proponents of order. Very strict order, which is quite strictly enforced, albeit through subtle means. In their function, they are quite authoritarian.
I don't confuse authoritarianism with conservatism, they're quite separate ideas, although they often combine in certain religious and political entities. Liberalism isn't quite the opposite of conservatism, but it often used as it's opposite. One can be socially liberal, but fiscally conservative, or one can socially or morally conservative and yet, not fiscally conservative at all! I think the recent Bush administration was a good example of the latter, as many confused his moral conservatism with financial, which was by no means evident. He presided over the most financially extravagant government policies in recent political history!
But, back to the topic of how authoritarian the WTS demonstrates itself to be.
The WTS claims to have no priesthood, which makes it seem quite "grassroots", with no clergy class, which they claim to despise, but according to the definition of a priesthood, the GB functions quite well as one, as a priesthood is there to interpret and enforce the will of God for the masses, who are deemed incapable of understanding the complexity of theology and must have it predigested and dispensed to them in a form they, the "uninspired" can grasp. Spiritual pablum for the masses, raw meat for the elite!
Not only do the "other sheep" function very well as a laity class, they do so without being aware that they are, but believe they are "ministers". Quite a trick!
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Sad emo
you know this double-talk you speak of Perry?
A short time thereafter when many in the general population again protested Moses' position, another fourteen thousand were consumed with a plague. They would all have died had not
Moses through Aaron, as God's exclusive mediator, "stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed". Please read Numbers Ch. 16. A careful reading will reveal that
Korah, Dathan and Abiram were not so much opposed to Moses and Aaron as they were opposed to the exclusivity of Moses and Aaron:
Which one was the exclusive mediator then? Moses or Aaron? It looks to me like you just shot yourself in the foot regarding the whole praying to Mary topic!
Remember this too - Jesus was considered a liberal Jew.
The Pharisees were liberal Jews at the time - it was the Sadducees who were 'fundamental'.
This being the case, Jesus, being more liberal than the Pharisees could be considered way off the mark of fundamental belief! He may have led us all up the garden path! We can only have faith that what he says is true.
My main point is that God's word is NOT confined to the written pages of a book - that is why the Jews still await their Messiah...
No - God's word is alive and active and the Holy Spirit guides us into truth - via any route He chooses to take us! Nobody else has the right to condemn the path another Christian takes - because it is by God's will that we are where we are on the journey.
The renewal of Peter's calling at the end of John's Gospel has had a significant impact on me over the last few months, this part in particular:
Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” Peter, seeing
him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
(John 21:20-22, NKJV)
Do you understand?
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BurnTheShips
That was great, Sad Emo.
BTS
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mindmelda
Great scripture about riding herd over another person's beliefs.
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AllTimeJeff
Sad Emo said
him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?” Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
My views are fairly well known, but if more Christians acted like Jesus, stopped worrying about "everyone else", then it would make a difference to a lot of people, myself included.
That is a good point Sad Emo. Thank you for sharing it. For the record, I find great value in the gospels, though I certainly do not worship Jesus. I think it a good idea to examine what is accredited to him, because they seem very wise to me.
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Perry
But, perhaps the only way they ARE liberal in doctrine is in that they believe "truth" is a gradual thing, and flexible.
Mind Media,
I agree with you here ....good point. I've posted this before. But I think this would be a good time to remind ourselves just how far off JW's are from basic Christianity. Some are a little stretch, I know. But, most are pretty thought provoking.
JW Similarity with Atheism
1. JW: Does Not Worship Jesus
Atheist: Does Not Worship Jesus
Christian: Worships Jesus
2. JW: Does Not Pray to Jesus
Atheist: Does Not Pray to Jesus
Christian: Prays to Jesus
3. JW: Rejects Jesus offer at the Memorial
Atheist: Rejects Jesus offer
Christian: Accepts Jesus offer
4. JW: Doesn’t accept literal creation account
Atheist: Doesn’t accept literal creation account
Christian: Many accept literal creation account
5. JW: Gets knowledge of “good and bad” from human authority - WT
Atheist: Gets knowledge of “good and bad” from human authority – social conditioning
Christian: Gets knowledge of good and bad from God - Indwelling Holy Spirit
6. JW: New Testament wasn’t written for the average JW
Atheist: New Testament wasn’t written for them
Christian: New Testament was written for “whosoever”
7. JW: Hates their enemies
Atheist: Hates their enemies
Christian: Can Supernaturally Love their enemies
8. JW: Doesn’t need a personal Savior (growing into perfection)
Atheist: Doesn’t need a personal Savior (sin doesn’t exist, only “mistakes”)
Christian: Needs a personal Savior (God’s justice demands punishment of ALL sin)
9. JW: Individual sin is not punished
Atheist: Individual sin is not punished
Christian: YOUR sin is punished either on the Cross or in Hell and eventually the lake of fire. - your choice
10. JW: Jesus was a man
Atheist: Jesus was a man
Christian: Jesus was fully God and fully man
11. JW: Death is the end of our consciousness
Atheist: Death is the end of our consciousness
Christian: Spirit survives death and “returns”
12. JW: Human Government is not from God
Atheist: Human Government is not from God
Christian: Human Government ordained by God until the Lord’s return
13. JW: Rights come from GB (JW government)
Atheist: Rights come from secular government
Christian: Certain rights are inherent to our species, which is in God’s image.
14. JW: Must protect their rights
Atheist: Must protect their rights
Christian: Must surrender their rights to Jesus
15. JW: Compares themselves to others
Atheist: Compares themselves to others
Christian: Compares themselves to Jesus
16. JW: Causing medical death OK (blood policy)
Atheist: Causing medical death OK (abortion)
Christian: Causing medical death is murder
17. JW: Men choose God
Atheist: Men choose God
Christian: God chooses men
18. JW: Eternal Life comes from knowledge – spin on John 17:3
Atheist: Quality Life comes from knowledge
Christian: Both eternal and quality Life come from Jesus
19. JW: Gifts of the Spirit don’t exist now
Atheist: Gifts of the Spirit don’t exist
Christian: Gifts of the Spirit exist
20. JW: Born again Christians are despised
Atheist: Born again Christians are despised
Christian: Born again Christians are cherished
21. JW: God doesn’t speak to individuals
Atheist: God doesn’t speak to individuals
Christian: God speaks to individuals
22. JW: God is personally far away
Atheist: God is even farther
Christian: God is near - omnipresent
23. JW: Holy Spirit does not inhabit people
Atheist: Holy Spirit does not inhabit people
Christian: Holy Spirit inhabits His “temple” - hearts of believers
24. JW: Has reason to fear death
Atheist: Has reason to fear death
Christian: No reason to fear death
25. JW: Death guaranteed
Atheist: Death guaranteed
Christian: Death conquered - Already “passed over from death to LIFE ”
26. JW: Morality is what the WT (the group) says it is
Atheist: Morality is what society (the group) says it is
Christian: Morality is what God says it is
27. JW: Are not Christ’s brothers
Atheist: Are not Christ’s brothers
Christian: Christ’s brothers
28 JW: Disobeys command to eat “flesh” & drink Christ’s “blood”
Atheist: Disobeys command to eat “flesh” & drink Christ’s “blood”
Christian: Obedient to command to eat “flesh” & drink Christ’s “blood”
30. JW: People are basically good
Atheist: People are basically good
Christian: People are basically bad – they have a sin nature and need a Savior to avoid judgment
31. JW: Military viewed negatively
Atheist: Many seem to view military negatively
Christian: Military viewed as a positive for countries and ordained by God
32. JW: Creating a utopia –spiritual paradise
Atheist: Creating a utopia – social paradise
Christian: Neither live in, nor can achieve a utopia apart from Christ
33. JW: Truth is revealed apart from God (GB)
Atheist: Truth is revealed apart from God (science)
Christian: Truth is revealed by God
34. JW: Individual revelation does not happen
Atheist: Individual revelation does not happen
Christian: Revelation happens
36. JW: Human Government not ordained by God
Atheist: Human Government not ordained by God
Christian: Human Government ordained by God
37. JW: Identity based on works
Atheist: Identity based on works
Christian: Identity based on Divine Heredity when born again
38. JW: Are not sons of God
Atheist: Are not sons of God
Christian: Are the Sons of God
39. JW: Death is the end of accountability
Atheist: Death is the end of accountability
Christian: Death is the beginning of YOUR accountability
40. JW: God is not in control of this world - the devil is
Atheist: God is not in control of this world – socio-political conditioners are
Christian: God is in total control
41. JW: Jesus cannot know the beginning and the end of things
Atheist: Jesus cannot know the beginning and the end of things
Christian: Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega knowing the beginning and the end.
42. JW: Jesus is not Lord
Atheist: Jesus is not Lord
Christian: Jesus is Lord
43. JW: The elect basically do not exist (most all have died)
Atheist: The elect do not exist
Christian: The elect are everywhere, at every level of society
44. JW: Are suspicious of Christians
Atheist: Are suspicious of Christians
Christian: Are comfortable with Christians
45. JW: Blames religion for war
Atheist: Blames religion for war
Christian: Blames sin for war
46. JW: God is not the proper source of education – WT is
Atheist: God is not the proper source of education – State is
Christian: God is the proper Source of all education
47. JW: Earth is Home
Atheist: Earth is Home
Christian: Wherever is Jesus, … is Home
48. JW: Holy Spirit doesn’t exist as a person
Atheist: Holy Spirit doesn’t exist
Christian: The Personality of the Holy Spirit indwells the believer
49. JW: Have not yet made peace with God through Christ
Atheist: Have not yet made peace with God through Christ
Christian: Are no longer enemies of God, made peace through Christ crucified
50. JW: We are not evil; Evil is outside of a person and impacts him
Atheist: We are not evil; If there is evil at all, it is outside him and inhibits man's good
Christian: We are evil by nature exacerbated by outside influences
51. JW: Has declared himself righteous - by association
Atheist: Has declared himself righteous – by autonomy
Christian: Has declared himself GUILTY
52. JW: Do not like being compared with atheists
Atheist: Do not like being compared with JW’s
Christian: Apart from Christ, it doesn’t really matter who you’re compared with
53. JW’s: Truth changes
Atheist: Truth changes
Christian: Truth is immutable
54. JW’s: Laws are external to human nature
Atheist: Laws are external to human nature
Christian: Laws are inherent to the new nature, written on the heart
55. JW’s: Some personal value derived from position in Society
Atheist: Some personal value derived from position in society
Christian: Personal value equal to God’s Son irregardless of social position
56. JW’s: Life’s meaning provided by leaders of WT Society
Atheist: Life’s meaning provided by self and leaders of society
Christian: Life’s meaning provided by God
57. JW’s: Slave to sin
Atheist: Slave to Sin
Christian: No longer slave to sin
58. JW’s: Seeks to save himself
Atheist: Seeks to save himself
Christian: Seeks to lose himself
59. JW’s: Getting enough is never enough
Atheist: Getting enough is never enough
Christian: Christ is always enough
60. JW’s: Seeks happiness
Atheist: Seeks happiness
Christian: Experiences joy and peace as supernatural gifts
61. JW’s: Expecting all others to die at Armageddon
Atheists: Expecting all to die by natural causes
Christian: Expecting others to live by means of Christ
62. JW’s: Takes credit for his good things
Atheist: Takes credit for his good things
Christian: Gives God credit for his good things
63. JW’s: Thinks there is no Judgment Day
Atheist: Thinks there is no Judgment Day
Christian: “it is appointed unto men once to die, then judgment
- Hebrews 9: 27
FACT :
The vast majority of former Jehovah's Witnesses are agnostic or atheist
• Now you know why.
• They had very little real change to make.
• They just switched “religions” and creeds
TRUTH:
• The universe cannot be proven to be self-existing
• Atheism must be taught; it is not innate as belief in God is.
• It requires faith and is a religion.
• Life and moral truth are ultimately meaningless if we are alone in the universe.
• “The heavens themselves declare the glory of God”
• “Therefore, they are without excuse.”
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Perry
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3: 19
Which one was the exclusive mediator then? Moses or Aaron? It looks to me like you just shot yourself in the foot regarding the whole praying to Mary topic!
Sad Emo,
There was only one mediator for the first contract (See above) and there is only one Mediator for the second contract (See Below).
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
- 1 Tim. 2: 5
That is basis of my argument. Whatever Aaron did/was, it is irrelevant to the discussion of exclusivity because he was not the mediator of the old Law covenant and was not the focus of others wanting to share in Moses' position.
This is fundamental Christianity. Everyone is free to choose whether or not they believe it to be accurate.
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Perry
My views are fairly well known, but if more Christians acted like Jesus, stopped worrying about "everyone else", then it would make a difference to a lot of people, myself included.
Jeff,
Jesus spoke a lot about Judgment and hell as being absolutely real. He preached about perfect love too. But, even that condemns us becasue although we can imagine it, on our own we cannot love like that.
It is impossible to talk about ALL of the things Jesus talked about without making some folks angry. Jesus message is an absolute indictment on the nature of man. The 'old man" is absolutely opposed to anything whatsoever to do with God, judgment, punishment etc. Jesus' complete message is enough to send people into raging episodes of temporary insanity.... precisely because it is the old man struggling for his very existence...being on a collision course with God, one way or another. When a person is threatened, he will do pretty much anything.
Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...
Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.
Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.