70 years = 607?

by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • BarefootServant
    BarefootServant

    Isaacaustin said:

    Since they returned the prior year, what year does that mean???? 538BCE.

    Interesting... putting all that together, it would appear that the Jewish return happened in 538 BCE in the first year of Cyrus, as a result of his decree at his inauguration in spring of that year (what better time to announce such a decree). So the Jews didn't hang about, they not only got organized, they made a journey that possibly took several months to get back to Jerusalem by the end of that year. The following year, 537 BCE, they started on the foundations of the temple, and this, being the second year of Cyrus, agrees with Josephus and Ezra, also with the destruction of the temple being fifty years earlier in 587/586 BCE. Interestingly, the completion of the temple in 517/516 BCE, is 70 years from its destruction. Given the overthrow of Babylon in 539 BCE, the 70 years of domination must have started in 609 BCE, which I guess is when the vassal king was installed in Jerusalem.

    Assuming I've got this right, this all seems to make sense. Unfortunately, it provides wiggle room for Scholar and the WT - all they have to do is say that the 'desolation' of the land was symbolized by the temple's destruction, and therefore only ended when the foundations were laid... in 537 BC!

    BFS

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Unfortunately, it provides wiggle room for Scholar and the WT - all they have to do is say that the 'desolation' of the land was symbolized by the temple's destruction, and therefore only ended when the foundations were laid... in 537 BC!

    And yet in Darius' reign, about 15 years or so after the exiles' return, the temple still remained 'a ruin,' 'waste,' 'desolate' (Hag. 1:3,9). Also in Artaxerxes I's reign, more than 90 years after the exiles' return, Jerusalem was still described as 'in ruins,' 'waste,' 'desolate' (Neh. 2:3, 17).

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Unfortunately, it provides wiggle room for Scholar and the WT - all they have to do is say that the 'desolation' of the land was symbolized by the temple's destruction, and therefore only ended when the foundations were laid... in 537 BC!

    They will cling to straws to uphold WT doctrine....but they completely ignore that the 70 years ends with the destruction of Jerusalem. They throw in a whole bunch of fables and half-truths and muddy the meaning of all these verses.

  • Mary
    Mary
    Why do they think Daniel’s “seven times” prophecy has a fulfillment beyond Nebuchadnezzer’s seven years of insanity? I can find no evidence of this in scripture. It seems to me to be a miraculous prophecy that took place exactly as Jehovah prophesied thru Daniel. This renders the whole 607 – 586 debate moot. Why add to it by using it to try to determine the length of the “gentile times”?

    You're absolutely right. There is no indication whatosever that the "seven times" is referring to anything other than the seven years Nebuchadnezzar went insane. Dr. Demento----better known on here as "Scholar" says that Daniel 4 'proves' that it has a secondary fulfillment. I read the entire chapter and there is absolutely nothing there to indicate anything of the kind. The only reason this buffoon is so desperately trying to promote such an idea is because of his blind dedication to the WT Empire. !!

    Here is the entire reading from Daniel chapter 4. If you're reading this Scholar (and I know you are), please point me to the verse that shows that the seven times is referring to something other than the seven years of Nebuchadnezzar's insanity:

    "Nebuchadnez′zar the king, to all the peoples, national groups and languages that are dwelling in all the earth: May YOUR peace grow great. 2 The signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed with me, it has seemed good to me to declare. 3 How grand his signs are, and how mighty his wonders are! His kingdom is a kingdom to time indefinite, and his rulership is for generation after generation.

    4 "I, Nebuchadnez′zar, happened to be at ease in my house and flourishing in my palace. 5 There was a dream that I beheld, and it began to make me afraid. And there were mental images upon my bed and visions of my head that began to frighten me. 6 And from me an order was being put through to bring in before me all the wise men of Babylon, that they might make known to me the very interpretation of the dream.

    7 "At that time the magic-practicing priests, the conjurers, the Chalde′ans and the astrologers were entering; and I was saying before them what the dream was, but its interpretation they were not making known to me. 8 And at last there came in before me Daniel, whose name is Belteshaz′zar according to the name of my god and in whom there is the spirit of the holy gods; and before him I said what the dream was:

    9 "‘O Belteshaz′zar the chief of the magic-practicing priests, because I myself well know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you and that there is no secret at all that is troubling you, tell [me] the visions of my dream that I have beheld and its interpretation.
    10 "‘Now the visions of my head upon my bed I happened to be beholding, and, look! a tree in the midst of the earth, the height of which was immense. 11 The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth. 12 Its foliage was fair, and its fruit was abundant, and there was food for all on it. Under it the beast of the field would seek shade, and on its boughs the birds of the heavens would dwell, and from it all flesh would feed itself.

    13 "‘I continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look! a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens themselves. 14 He was calling out loudly, and this is what he was saying: "CHOP the tree down, and cut off its boughs. SHAKE off its foliage, and scatter its fruitage. Let the beast flee from under it, and the birds from its boughs. 15 However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, even with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field; and with the dew of the heavens let it be wet, and with the beast let its portion be among the vegetation of the earth.

    16 Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it. 17 By the decree of watchers the thing is, and [by] the saying of holy ones the request is, to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind."

    18 "‘This was the dream that I myself, King Nebuchadnez′zar, beheld; and you yourself, O Belteshaz′zar, say what the interpretation is, forasmuch as all the [other] wise men of my kingdom are unable to make known to me the interpretation itself. But you are competent, because the spirit of holy gods is in you.'
    19 "At that time Daniel himself, whose name is Belteshaz′zar, was astonished for a moment, and his very thoughts began to frighten him. "The king was answering and saying, ‘O Belteshaz′zar, do not let the dream and the interpretation themselves frighten you.'
    "Belteshaz′zar was answering and saying, ‘O my lord, may the dream [apply] to those hating you, and its interpretation to your adversaries.

    20 "‘The tree that you beheld, that grew great and became strong and the height of which finally reached the heavens and which was visible to all the earth, 21 and the foliage of which was fair, and the fruit of which was abundant, and on which there was food for all; under which the beasts of the field would dwell, and on the boughs of which the birds of the heavens would reside, 22 it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.

    23 "‘And because the king beheld a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was also saying: "CHOP the tree down, and RUIN it. However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens let it become wet, and with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it," 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. 25 And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.

    26 "‘And because they said to leave the rootstock of the tree, your kingdom will be sure to you after you know that the heavens are ruling. 27 Therefore, O king, may my counsel seem good to you, and remove your own sins by righteousness, and your iniquity by showing mercy to the poor ones. Maybe there will occur a lengthening of your prosperity.'"

    28 All this befell Nebuchadnez′zar the king.

    29 At the end of twelve lunar months he happened to be walking upon the royal palace of Babylon. 30 The king was answering and saying: "Is not this Babylon the Great, that I myself have built for the royal house with the strength of my might and for the dignity of my majesty"

    31 While the word was yet in the king's mouth, there was a voice that fell from the heavens: "To you it is being said, O Nebuchadnez′zar the king, ‘The kingdom itself has gone away from you, 32 and from mankind they are driving even you away, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will be. Vegetation they will give even to you to eat just like bulls, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.'"

    33 At that moment the word itself was fulfilled upon Nebuchadnez′zar, and from mankind he was being driven away, and vegetation he began to eat just like bulls, and with the dew of the heavens his own body got to be wet, until his very hair grew long just like eagles' [feathers] and his nails like birds' [claws].

    34 "And at the end of the days I, Nebuchadnez′zar, lifted up to the heavens my eyes, and my own understanding began to return to me; and I blessed the Most High himself, and the One living to time indefinite I praised and glorified, because his rulership is a rulership to time indefinite and his kingdom is for generation after generation. 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are being considered as merely nothing, and he is doing according to his own will among the army of the heavens and the inhabitants of the earth. And there exists no one that can check his hand or that can say to him, ‘What have you been doing'

    36 "At the same time my understanding itself began to return to me, and for the dignity of my kingdom my majesty and my brightness themselves began to return to me; and for me even my high royal officers and my grandees began eagerly searching, and I was reestablished upon my own kingdom, and greatness extraordinary was added to me.

    37 "Now I, Nebuchadnez′zar, am praising and exalting and glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are justice, and because those who are walking in pride he is able to humiliate."

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Mary...I do see verse 28 that says 28 All this befell Neb?u?chad?nez′zar the king.

    Anything beyond that is a WT fable. I have seen you slap Scholar down on htis topic many, many, many times. Amazing how he is such a glutton for punishment.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    The amazing thin is that even if we grant the JW ALL thse leaps of logic with these unrelated texts and agree that Dan 4 has the 2nd fulfillment...it still has a wrong starting point so you would never end up at 1914. LOL

  • Mary
    Mary
    Mary...I do see verse 28 that says 28 All this befell Nebuchadnez′zar the king. Anything beyond that is a WT fable.

    Bingo! When you read the entire chapter, it clearly shows that the tree that was cut down and banded with copper was referring to Nebuchadnezzar's interupted reign. That's it. The idea that it is somehow referring to 1914 is laughable yet people like "scholar" will try to move heaven and earth to prove that it does. Why? Simply because their entire faith hinges on this date. They have such a vested interest in this date that it must be protected at all costs. No amount of reason, logic or even the scriptures themselves will convince them otherwise. Talk about wanting to have your ears tickled----'scholar' is the epitome of a brainwashed Witness. Showing how blind he is, he actually was dumb enough to write:

    No one has beaten scholar for he is too smart for apostates and atheists such as Alan F, scholar kicks ass when he has to.

    I'm not sure how many have seen AlanF and scholar debate on JWS but it's actually quite hilarious as AlanF beats scholar's ass on a regular basis. The fact that a 'celebrated JW scholar' cannot apparently tell when he's lost an argument is further evidence of his buffoonery and mental instability.

  • scholar
    scholar

    Mary

    Post 10645

    You write utter nonsense and the use of insulting language merely proves that your argument is weak and pathetic. Alan F and scholar have engaged in vigorous debate on chronology over many years and at every point scholar has answered his questions, solved his problems and refuted his apostate nonsense. The debate is matter of public record on this forum and it is for others to judge as to scholar's expertise or not.

    Regarding the matter of whether the tree dream has a antypical fulfillment or not is clearly evident bythe very fact of the dream's theme and that is God's Kingdom which by very defintion was a future reality. The very mention of this Kingdom of God is of itself sufficient proof that Nebuchadnezzer's experience had far wider and greater significance and this is before one looks at the other evidences on this matter.

    scholar JW

  • scholar
    scholar

    Barefoot Servant

    Post 68

    Unfortunately, chronology and history has a certain amount of 'wiggle room' because our knowledge of these sunjects is far from perfect. In fact, scholar taught Alan F a very important lesson about chronology in fact it is CHRONOLOGY 101: Chronology is Interpretation and Methodology.. A good example of 'wiggle room' for apostate chronologists is the fact their chronology lacks precision for the begiining of the seventy years. For example, even to this day Carl Jonsson and his conspirators have not yet overcome the 'two year wiggle' between 609 and 605 BCE for a possible beginning of the seventy years.

    Returning to your comments about the date 537 BCE for the Return as calculated by the 'celebrated WT scholars', the supposed date of 538 BCE is impossible for the precise Return because if the Decree was promulgated in 538 BCE then allowing for the journey, preparations and resettlement by the seventh month then it must have been in 537 BCE that the Jews returned home. This understanding of matters is supported by many other scholars and others clearly indicate that the 'wiggle room' is present for all who seek some precision on the matter. For example, in many reference works a question mark follows the listing of 537 BCE indicating some uncertainty and lack of precise historical detail. Jonsson himself expresses this uncertainty by means of a footnote relating to this matter. In short, scholar believes that 537 BCE is the most likely, possible/probable date for the Return consistent with current secular.biblical.historical evidence aviailable at this time. The clincher for such an approved methodology is the fact that the Gentile Times expired in 1914 CE based upon the scholarly determined 607-537 BCE scenario. Enjoy!

    scholar JW

  • allelsefails
    allelsefails

    Scholar - Why did Russell use the 606 - 536 when he beleived 536 was the year Babylon was overthrown? Not the year of the Jews return, but Babylons destruction. Of course his 1914 date was wrong because "0" year mistake which the WTS did not admit until the 1950's when achaeology proved the 536 date was wrong and it was 539 when babylon was destroyed. They had to scramble to make the new "truth" fit "facts". It is amazing how people will believe what they want to believe despite any facts presented. Scientologists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses ... so different ... so the same.

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