70 years = 607?

by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

scholar

AnnOMaly
Post 958
Your point about ignoring advances in Bible scholarship with some discoveries in the 1870's is rather trite. Perhaps it was felt that such discoveries did not have much impact on the interpretation of Bible History and Bible Prophecy to have any significance. Bible chronology over that period was still progressing right up to the time of Martin Anstey who published his The Romance Of Bible Chronology in 1913. In that work Anstey traces the history of Chronology right up to the late 1800's and there was very little research published during that period so that means any new developments of that period had to wait some time for its employment.
scholar JW
scholar

AnnOMaly
Post 957
Your two tabulations highlight the problems involved with chronology so that is why is far wiser to pay attention to the research made by the 'celebrated' WT scholars who have written much on this subject harmonizing all of the secular, biblical and historical data.
scholar JW
Mary

Scholar has ably demonstrated the 'proof' of 607 BCE and shown in a rational way theat Neb's dream vision of Dan.4 has a minor and major fulfillment as shown by the context and the frequent use of the word 'Kingdom' which is eschatological. It is all there in the mix.
No, 'scholar' has done nothing of the kind. There is nothing in Daniel chapter 4 that indicates that it had a 'minor and major' fulfillment----it's all based on nothing more than plucking certain words and phrases, putting your own spin on it and trying to pawn it off as "fact". You have been asked repeatedly to provide some proof that Daniel 4 is linked to Luke 21. You have not been able to do it, and you never will, for the simple fact is that the two events have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Leolaia explained it in detail and showed why your 'reasoning' (if you can even call it that) is flawed and baseless, as has everyone else on here.
You keep asserting that scholar has provided no proof but how do you explain the fact that scholar is actively present in defending, answering questions, explaining and refuting points that are raised on this subject for the last eight years? Scholar has been very busy indeed as he does not deal with fluff, fantasy but substance.
And once again I say "bullshit". I agree that you are very active in defending the WTS, but that does not mean squat when it comes to truth and evidence. The Nazis defended the Third Reich. Does that mean they were right? You have not provided ANYTHING except crap and then more crap in the last 8 years 'scholar'. The fact that you believe you have is yet another indication that you delusional and are practicing self-deception.
You may want to take the time to read up on it 'scholar'. Then get to a doctor and get some help:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200811/truth-lies-and-self-deception
scholar

Mary
Post 10694
Methinks Mary is not happy with scholar!
Proof of the fact that Daniel 4 has a major fulfillment is the very theme of the chapter which introduces the chapter and is part of Neb's confession and that is God's Kingdom. The link between Luke 21:24 are two periods of time: the trampling of Jerusalem and the Gentile Times. Further, there is use of the word 'times' featured in both Luke and Daniel and finally there is the fact the Jerusalem in typified in Luke and was typfied by the 'tree' as the typical Kingdom of God on earth, the kingdom of Judah with its Davidic Monarchy. So we have at least 3 sound reasons to prove the matter.
I have refuted Leolaia's hypothesis or at least I am not persuaded by it and no doubt we will continue to contend the matter.
Scholar is a great believer in facts and evidence and has been faithful in this matter over the last eight years and will continue to pursue truth in all its glory.
scholar JW
AllTimeJeff

Scholar
WHERE THE HELL IS THE EVIDENCE THAT JERUSALEM FELL IN 607 BCE??? (please don't use the Insight Volume. Another source, secular would be great) Just throw me a bone, something to read. Or tell me what you are basing it off of. I haven't seen your references, I only smell your crap.
This is a small commentary on Scholars "style". It is one I recognize very much. And I have to say, I might even know you, I don't know. (my guts going red alert with your postulations) Having said that, you use very magnanimous terms like relying on "bible based chronology". It sounds so authoritative, until you read the bible and find no dates, only references to kings and years when cities were destroyed, etc.
Without the astrological records of the Babylonians, we would have no way to count backward. But because we can accurately use these records and apply them to the Gregorian Calender. Even JW's admit this. This is from the SI book, page 282-3, pars 27,28
27
PivotalDates. Reliable Bible chronology is based on certain pivotal dates. A pivotal date is a calendar date in history that has a sound basis for acceptance and that corresponds to a specific event recorded in the Bible. It can then be used as the starting point from which a series of Bible events can be located on the calendar with certainty. Once this pivotal point is fixed, calculations forward or backward from this date are made from accurate records in the Bible itself, such as the stated life spans of people or the duration of the reigns of kings. Thus, starting from a pegged point, we can use the reliable internal chronology of the Bible itself in dating many Bible events.
28
PivotalDatefortheHebrewScriptures. A prominent event recorded both in the Bible and in secular history is the overthrow of the city of Babylon by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. The Bible records this event at Daniel 5:30. Various historical sources (including Diodorus, Africanus, Eusebius, Ptolemy, and the Babylonian tablets) support 539 B.C.E. as the year for the overthrow of Babylon by Cyrus. The Nabonidus Chronicle gives the month and day of the city’s fall (the year is missing). Secular chronologers have thus set the date for the fall of Babylon as October 11, 539 B.C.E., according to the Julian calendar, or October 5 by the Gregorian calendar.
First of all, JW's and scholars AGREE on this, and JW's make a big deal about "how we all agree on this date".
Here's the catch: THE VERY SAME SOURCES TO SUPPORT 539 BCE ARE REJECTED BY THE GOVERNING BODY WHEN WE COUNT BACK A MERE 48 YEARS TO THE DATE THAT THESE SAME RECORDS SHOW AS THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM, WHICH IS 587/586 BCE.
The Governing Body has cherry picked a big problem. They are all alone in promoting 607 BCE. They rely on records for other dates that directly contradict this date.
Scholar, you are wrong. I bet you even know you're wrong. Sad. The only thing that JW's like you do is try to discredit the evidence, never to show alternative evidence
scholar

AllTime Jeff
Post 1547
The evidence for 607 BCE is simply fact that 539 BCE fell in 539 BCE as attested by scholarship followed by the establishment of 537 BCE as the date for the Jewish Exiles under Cyrus as confirmed by Ezra and other archaeological evidence for the Decree of Cyrus in his first year. This Return ended the prophesied 70 year period of Exile-Desolation-Servitude in 607 BCE with the Destruction of Jerusalem in the 11th year of Zedekiak and the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzer. The facts concerning the 70 years are described by Ezra, Daniel, Jeremiah and Zechariah are attested by the testimony of Josephus. This is just a simple overview of the subject.
As you acknowledge scholars including the 'celebrated' WT scholars need to rely on Pivotal Dates or Absolute in order to do chronology but the selection of such dates varies from scholar to scholar. Our scholars have selected 539 BCE as the best choicemuch to the chagrin of apostates. The use of 539 BCE is based on a selected methodology which is the basis of any scheme of chronology but provides surety for the determination of 607 BCE.
scholar JW
Mary

Methinks Mary is not happy with scholar!
Actually, I feel sorry for you.
Proof of the fact that Daniel 4 has a major fulfillment is the very theme of the chapter which introduces the chapter and is part of Neb's confession and that is God's Kingdom.
'God's Kingdom'----or at least the way the JW's believe it, has nothing to do with what happened in Daniel chapter 4. There's no mention of a paradise earth ruled by Jesus and 144,000. Nebuchadnezzar was an earthly king who got too big for his britches and was humbled by God. That is the theme of chapter 4. Trying to claim that it had anything at all to do with your vision of the Messianic Reign is without basis and fact.
The link between Luke 21:24 are two periods of time: the trampling of Jerusalem and the Gentile Times.
Which happened at the exact same time. Don't believe it? Let's do something that the WTS never does: let's just see what the scriptures say including the context and not just one verse that they twist:
Luke 21: 20-24 "Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near."
When did this happen? According to both secular history and even the WT, this was a future event that happened when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem in 66 CE. No big mystery here.
21 Then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her; 22 because these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled.
When did this happen? While it is not entirely clear as to whether the early Christians actually fled the city (there are early records indicating that they did, in fact, flee to a town called Pella), the point is, if they did flee, they did so after the prophecy in Luke, not before. Common sense says that it would have been somewhere inbetween 66 CE and 70 CE.
23 Woe to the pregnant women and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; 24
Again, this is a reference to how difficult it would be for a pregnant woman to flee the city.
"and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations;"
Again, this is part of the prophecy and it happened after the Romans returned and devastated the city in 70 CE.
and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
With absolutely no reasoning, or scriptural basis, suddenly the last half of the same sentence is referring to another completely irrelavent event that happened hundreds of years earlier?! Ya-----riiiiiiight.
Further, there is use of the word 'times' featured in both Luke and Daniel
Wow. That's real concrete evidence--using the word "times". Hey scholar, let's see you wrap your brain around this one: Since Genesis 4: 15 uses the phrase "seven times", that must mean that Cain suffered vengence for 2,520 years right?
(Genesis 4:15) . . ."At this Jehovah said to him: "For that reason anyone killing Cain must suffer vengeance seven times."
and finally there is the fact the Jerusalem in typified in Luke and was typfied by the 'tree' as the typical Kingdom of God on earth,
No it was not. There is nothing in Luke that says anything about the city of Jerusalem being 'typified' by the tree in Nebuchadnezzar's vision. That's another bullshit lie that you continue to spew.
So we have at least 3 sound reasons to prove the matter.
Which I have systematically destroyed. Care to try a different approach or are you just going to continue to demonstrate your ignorance?
I have refuted Leolaia's hypothesis or at least I am not persuaded by it and no doubt we will continue to contend the matter.
You have refuted nothing that she said. I'm sure in your own mind you have, but in the real world, you have done nothing but talk in circles.
Scholar is a great believer in facts and evidence and has been faithful in this matter over the last eight years and will continue to pursue truth in all its glory.
Yep........you do that 'scholar'.
scholar

Mary
Post 10695
You should be kind to scholar!
If God's Kingdom has nothing to do with Daniel 4 then Why is it mentioned so often in the account? Pray tell!
The trampling of Jerusalem and the Gentile times both run concurrently and began in the past according to the grammatical form of the verb used by Luke. Also, Jerusalem in this Lucan context was typical of something far beyond that literal city as admitted by theologians and scholars and I have drawn attention to such studies in a previous post to Leolaia. So that 'trampling' theologically speaking began in 607 BCE when God's typical Kingdom was overthrown by Nebuchadnezzer as prophesied in Dan.4.
You are a person that only wants to see what is diectly in front of you with no apparent interesti in understanding God's Word so the deeper things of God's Word are meaninglless to you. Certainly Luke does deal with events that befell Jerusalem up until 70 CE but the background of that particular verse and its immediate context is regarded by Bible scholars as eschatological which is very much thematic with Luke whose book along with Acts is concerned with salvation history.
scholar JW
Mary

If God's Kingdom has nothing to do with Daniel 4 then Why is it mentioned so often in the account? Pray tell!
The kingdom mentioned in Daniel chapter 4 is talking about the earthly kingdom that Nebuchadnezzar was ruling over at that time. The entire chapter was a lesson for man not to get too haughty and full of himself. The theme is NOT about the establishment of an invisible kingdom in 1914 and you have absolutely nothing to back up that claim.
The trampling of Jerusalem and the Gentile times both run concurrently and began in the past according to the grammatical form of the verb used by Luke.
Bullshit. No it did not begin in the past and there is nothing in the 'grammatical form of the verb' that indicates that-----It is simply a wild assertion made by you and the Craptower.
So that 'trampling' theologically speaking began in 607 BCE when God's typical Kingdom was overthrown by Nebuchadnezzer as prophesied in Dan.4.
And once again, I say "show me the proof". Something beyond your wild assertions. You sitting there typing this crap doesn't magically make it all real. Well, maybe it does in your mind, but fortunately, the real world is something else.
Certainly Luke does deal with events that befell Jerusalem up until 70 CE but the background of that particular verse and its immediate context is regarded by Bible scholars as eschatological which is very much thematic with Luke whose book along with Acts is concerned with salvation history.
And yet another bullshit lie by 'scholar'. There are no scholars who believe that this verse is referring to anything other than what happened in 70 CE. Can you please provide us with a list of the names of all these 'bible scholars' who believe this, have written about it and published their findings? Or is this yet another pathetic example of your uh, 'celebrated WT scholars' coming to visit with you in the night with a dosage of thorazine for Scholar?
I notice that you completely ignored my question about the 'seven times' mentioned in Gensis. Hey, if it mentions those words, it must be linked to a 'greater prophecy' eh?
LMAO.......keep dreaming scholar........It's what you do best.
I'm outta here.
Billy the Ex-Bethelite

Okay you apostates, this is up to 13 pages, why can't you accept the truth?!?!?
Now Billy's gonna edumakate you that 1914 was proven as the End of the Gentile times a hundred years ago!!! The Faithful and Discreet Slave along with their "celebrated WT scholars" directed the publishing of the spirit guided book Thy Kingdom Come wherein 1914 is conclusively proven...
... in pyramid inches!!!
Yes, the ancient "Stone Witness" called "Khufu's pyramid" by "worldly apostates" was actually built by Melchizedek!!!
So rush out to your local Kingdumb Hall and order a copy of Volume 3 of Studies in the Scriptures and learn all about pyramid inches and how the "Time of the End" began in 1799! Also, you'll learn from these "celebrated WT scholars" that...
...nope, I'm not giving away any more of these gems of truth!!!
Get your own copy! Mine says it only cost 35 cents.
Then, just do the math backwards and you easily get the number 607!! Just ignore all of that "worldly" archeology and history facts! Don't you want a pet tiger... very soon now? Well, then, you have to believe in 607!! The "celebrated WT scholars" say so!
B the X

70 years = 607?

Share this