70 years = 607?

by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    (fake) Scholar

    There is no need for any endorsement by scholars or a scholar to support the validity of 607 BCE for it is a fact that scholars have to date no uniform date for the Fall as some say 588, 587 or 586 BCE so there is some fluidity in this matter. The counting backwards is a legitimate method of doing chronology which is in harmony with tabulated events and dates after all chronology is a scheme after all so events are placed in the stream of time so as one can in either direction.

    I totally disagree and contradict this statement sir, for it allows any group or religion to make stuff up. Even the WTBTS recognizes this with their so called "pivotal date" of 539 BCE. If what you say is true, why do they fall on that date so much, while disregarding what is found in the same records as to the original fall of Jerusalem?

    Counting backwards is only legitimate when there is an established time frame of history. The prophetical exegesis and dogma of a group is not legit to use to count backwards, esp when it "fulfills prophecy". Really? The counting back of 70 years is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses, but that is dogma, not history, and again, no one else uses this. I used to be so impressed by this, because the GB calls it "biblical chronology". That phrase stopped me from doing anymore research for years, until I realized that this phrase is designed to do exactly that, get its membership to take their word for the date of 607 BCE.

    Why is that necessary? Because as you and I both know, there is no evidence at all that Jerusalem fell on 607 BCE. So to sum up: There is a need for agreement with scholars, and the GB should have at least one, but it doesn't. Counting backwards is legitimate only in certain circumstances, which do not exist here when it comes to the determining of the fall of Jerusalem.

  • dorayakii
    dorayakii

    The Watchtower interpretation of the "Gentile Times" involves misapplying and bringing together too many irrelevant, unrelated Old and New Testament scriptures. You can't just scour the Bible for the words "times" and put all those prophecies together.

    Luke 21:24, "and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

    Irrelevant. This prophecy refers to an event in the future relative to Jesus' day. It cannot refer back to an event that happened 600 years before Jesus uttered the prophecy. Verses 20 & 21 say "Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her". This is clearly referring to the Roman seige of Jerusalem in 70 AD, NOT the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem in 586 BC (Watchtower date: 607 BC).

    Daniel 4:16, "Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, andlet the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it."

    Irrelevant. This verse refers to the 7 year madness of paganking Nebuchadnezzar. It CANNOT refer to God's holy dynasty. Why would God choose a rebellious pagan king to represent his own rule? In what way was God's Kingdom given the heart of a beast?

    Revelation 12:6, 14 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there 1260 days."... "But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent."

    Inconsistent. The Watchtower applies the 1260 days of Revelation 11: 2,3 to Rutherford's imprisonment between 1914 and 1918, a literal 1260 days. Yet it uses this same scripture to calculate that 7 times = 2 x 3.5 times = 2 x 1260 days = 2520 days = 2520 years. You can't have it both ways, "days" meaning years in one instant and days in another. Daniel 12:11,12 are also said to be literal daysrelated to a uneventful District Convention at Cedar Point, Ohio in 1922. How egocentric and parochial.

    Numbers 14:34 "By the number of the days that YOU spied out the land, forty days, a day for a year, a day for a year, YOU will answer for YOUR errors forty years, as YOU must know what my being estranged means."

    and Ezekiel 4:6, "And you must lie upon your right side in the second case, and you must carry the error of the house of Judah forty days. A day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you."

    Both irrelevant. These two verses are NOT indictations of how to interpret Messianic prophecies fortold in days but are judgments of punishment for sin. In the first case, the Israelites were sinful for 40 days and the punishment was 40 years of wandering. In the second case Judah was sinful for 40 years and the punishment (for Ezikiel) was 40 days. They are opposite to one another and both reflect a kind of poetic justice that was common in the Bronze-Age near-east. The main point is that in each case the punishment was clear and precise and did not involve elaborate mathematical calculations. Daniel's "seven times" prophecy is also very clear when it talks about Nebuchadnezzar being beastlike for 7 years. There is no need to read something else into it.


    The final nail in the coffin has already been mentionned before. 1914 became such a pivotal date that it was necessary to preserve it at all costs, even if the point of origin changed from 606 to 607 when it was discovered there was no year 0. The year 607 is not based in scripture and it is not based in archaeology. It was derived from counting backwards from 1914!!

    The 70 years most likely was written about after the event and most likely refers to the period between 609 BC and 539 BC. 609 BC was the year of the Battle of Megiddo when the combined armies of Egypt and Assyria on their way to fight the Babylonians at Carchemish marched through Judah and killed King Josiah for refusing them permission to pass through.

    This battle is recorded in 2 Chronicles 35:20-35. "After all this, when Josiah had set the temple in order, Neco king of Egypt came up to make war at Carchemish on the Euphrates, and Josiah went out to engage him. But Neco sent messengers to him, saying, “What have we to do with each other, O King of Judah? I am not coming against you today but against the house with which I am at war, and God has ordered me to hurry. Stop for your own sake from interfering with God who is with me, so that He will not destroy you.” However, Josiah would not turn away from him, but disguised himself in order to make war with him; nor did he listen to the words of Neco from the mouth of God, but came to make war on the plain of Megiddo. The archers shot King Josiah, and the king said to his servants, “Take me away, for I am badly wounded.” 24 So his servants took him out of the chariot and carried him in the second chariot which he had, and brought him to Jerusalem where he died and was buried in the tombs of his fathers. All Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah. Then Jeremiah chanted a lament for Josiah. And all the male and female singers speak about Josiah in their lamentations to this day. And they made them an ordinance in Israel; behold, they are also written in the Lamentations".

    This was evidently a prominent event in Jewish consciousness and is the origin of the term "Armageddon". It was a year of great shame and lamentation for the Jewish people, and was the beginning of the period of hardship including the sacking of Jerusalem in 586 BC.

    Between 609 and 605 the Babylonians conquered the Egyptians and the Assyrians proving themselves to be the major power of the day. This all ended in 539 BC when Kurash (Cyrus) of Persia conquered Babylon and characteristically allowed the Jews and all other captives to return to built the temple. Kurash was a Zoroastrian who left a lasting legacy on Judaism (and Christianity) and human rights. The rewriting and restructuring of the Bible probably took place then, the 100-350 year old Yahwist, Elohist and Deuteromist texts being mixed with new Priestly texts and blended seamlessly by the Redactor. The new Judaism was modelled on Zoroastrianism showing the powerful legacy that Kurash left on the Jewish consciousness at the time. Evidently the 70 years prophecy was about this 70 year period of shame, displacement, lamentation and eventual repatriation. The whole Jewish victim complex probably stems from this defining moment in history and the direction of the previously parochial Jewish religion was clearly defined. The concept of Satan as an evil individual was directly borrowed from the Zoroastrian concept, the final eradication of Jewish polytheism also probably took place at this time, the instigation of the Priesthood, the idea of a final purgation of evil from the Earth and the concept that Yahweh alone was the creator-god were all Zoroastrian concepts that were merged with Judaism.

    The prosperity of the new Judaism thanks to the Persians after 539 must have lead to the many "prophecies" about the 70 years of woe and lamentation from 609 to 539.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    dorayakii

    BRAVO!

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    dorayakii....Thank for for "keeping it simple"....that was a handy, very digestible summation of the basic flaws in a "Gentile Times" interpretation of Daniel 4.

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    dorayakii,

    Are you the prophecied "celebrated JW scholar" who has been sent forth to destroy Watchtower Corporation falsehood, or are we to expect another?

  • dorayakii
    dorayakii

    I am he... yet I say to you, soon you will see Dorayakii sitting at the right hand of of God and coming on the clouds of the heaven...

  • Mary
    Mary

    .....smiting 'celebrated WT scholars' with his rod of iron. And look! 'Scholar' was thrown into the outter darkness for a time, times and half a time, where he will gnash his teeth and take large doses of thorazine to help him deal with reality.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    "scholar" #1694

    Your point about ignoring advances in Bible scholarship with some discoveries in the 1870's is rather trite. Perhaps it was felt that such discoveries did not have much impact on the interpretation of Bible History and Bible Prophecy to have any significance. Bible chronology over that period was still progressing right up to the time of Martin Anstey who published his The Romance Of Bible Chronology in 1913. In that work Anstey traces the history of Chronology right up to the late 1800's and there was very little research published during that period so that means any new developments of that period had to wait some time for its employment.

    Anstey knew about the discoveries of the 1870s because he refers to them in his book! He said (regarding these Egibi tablets):

    "Transactions are recorded in each of the 9 years of Cyrus, B.C. 538-530, including the two years in which he was Co-Rex with Darius the Mede, B.C. 538- 537, and the 7 years in which he was sole King, B.C. 536-530. Cyrus being regarded as King of Babylon during the whole of these 9 years, Darius the Mede, whose residence was at Ecbatana, is not mentioned." [sorry - no page no.]

    The problem was not about 'very little research published' - which would make somewhat puzzling P.S.L. Johnson's claim that 9 out of the 12 encyclopedias he checked in 1914 dated the first year of Cyrus to 538. The problem was regarding Bible interpretation (again) and whether to count Cyrus' first year (according to Ezra) to after Darius the Mede apparently died (536) - even though the archaeological evidence (acknowledged by Anstey) showed it was Cyrus' reign that was actually counted from Babylon's fall.

    The reason the Society doggedly stuck with 536 was because of the inviolable 606 date they wanted to keep for Jerusalem's destruction. When they finally, FINALLY had to ditch the zero year and 606 became 607, then the end point had to be 537 with a reallocation of events surrounding that year.

    #1695

    Your two tabulations highlight the problems involved with chronology so that is why is far wiser to pay attention to the research made by the 'celebrated' WT scholars who have written much on this subject harmonizing all of the secular, biblical and historical data.

    Pure twaddle. There are more holes in WT chronology than in a Swiss cheese, and deep down you know it :-)

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    All kidding aside, I wish I could have read just one thread like this back in 1980 or so. The clear deceit of Watchtower Corporation with their fabricated history, and the pharisaic, condescending hypocrisy of some "celebrated JW scholars", is truly unbelievable... yet it happened and continues.

    The facts laid out in these pages, as well as many other threads make the conclusion clear: the emperor, the corporation, and this "scholar JW" have no clothes. In addition to the truths that you all have presented, my consideration of Russell's Studies in the Scriptures paint an aging Corporation posing as a religion, built upon the salvaged wreckage of false prophecy and absurd Egyptology.

    B the X

  • startingover
    startingover

    Great thread everyone. I gotta know, scholar, when did you start speaking in the third person?

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