70 years = 607?

by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Billy...Don't forget "Paul S Johnson".

    In this they were supported by P.S.L. Johnson, a traveling minister whom Russell had sent to England to preach to the troops. Johnson, who arrived in England in November, 1916, and immediately contrived to seize control of the Society's London bank account, is described as "a Jew who had forsaken Judaism to become a Lutheran minister before he came to a knowledge of the truth" and as a man whose "brilliance led to his downfall." JWDP, p. 69] He is clearly seen as a kind of Lucifer. After his dismissal from headquarters, Johnson attempted unsuccessfully to form a sect of his own. He believed until his death that he was the world's high priest and Russell's legitimate successor.

    http://www.exjws.net/vg6.htm

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    HAHAHAHAHA

    STOP IT!!!!

    Leo, all this laughing is ripping out my stitches!!!!!

    HAHAHAHAHA

    Oh, the pain!

    HAHAHAHAHA

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    scholar, post 1718: "...use your research skills and seek what you are looking for."

    Billy: Done! Got any more rope we can hang ya with?

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    See, we do have people that know their research.

    P S Johnson. Totally ran by that guy. They actually spent 10 minutes on this guy at Gilead as we went through the Proclaimers book. And as you might have guessed, the GB totally took a piss on his memory.

    Here are the good parts.

    *** jv chap. 28 pp. 627-628 Testing and Sifting From Within ***

    Perhaps it seemed so when the majority in a congregation voted to sever ties with the Society. But they were like a branch cut from a tree—green for a while, then withered and lifeless. When the opposers held a convention in 1918, differences surfaced, and a split occurred. Further disintegration followed. Some functioned for a while as small sects with a leader that they admired. None of them devoted themselves to the work of giving a public witness in all the inhabited earth concerning God’s Kingdom, which is the work that Jesus assigned to his followers.

    Thereafter, P. S. L. Johnson appeared at meetings of the Bible Students and made it seem that he was in agreement with their beliefs and activity. But after gaining the confidence of some, he would sow seeds of doubt. If anyone suggested a break with the Society, he hypocritically discouraged this—until the loyalty of the group had been thoroughly undermined. By correspondence and even by personal trips, he endeavored to influence the brothers not only in the United States but also in Canada, Jamaica, Europe, and Australia. Was this successful?

    Thwarted in his endeavors, he returned to New York. There he sought to elicit support from certain ones who were serving on the Society’s board of directors. Those who were persuaded to side with him endeavored to achieve their aims by trying to pass a resolution to repeal bylaws of the Society that authorized the president to manage its affairs. They wanted authority for all decisions to rest with them. Legal action was taken by Brother Rutherford to safeguard the interests of the Society, and those who were seeking to disrupt its work were asked to leave the Bethel Home. At the annual meeting of the Society’s shareholders early the following year, when the board of directors and its officers were elected for the year to come, those who had been agitators were overwhelmingly rejected. Perhaps some of them thought that they were in the right, but the vast majority of their spiritual brothers made it clear that they did not agree. Would they accept that reproof?

    Over 20 years later, prior to his death, Brother Russell expressed his intention to send Paul S. L. Johnson, a very capable speaker, to Britain to strengthen the Bible Students there. Out of respect for Brother Russell’s wish, the Society dispatched Johnson to Britain in November 1916. However, once he was in Britain, he dismissed two of the Society’s managers. Seeing himself as an important personage, he argued in speeches and correspondence that what he was doing was foreshadowed in the Scriptures by Ezra, Nehemiah, and Mordecai. He claimed to be the steward (or, man in charge) referred to by Jesus in his parable at Matthew 20:8. He tried to take control of the Society’s money, and he instituted a suit in the High Court of London to achieve his aims.

    Yeah, in hindsight, when over half leave, as did the Bible students did after Russels death, it could seem that they won. But the judge was a lawyer and realized his new religion he seized was a business. In hindsight, he did a good job of running it, even if it was based on a lie.

    Marketing rules the world, not honesty. Esp so in JW land.

    Oh and by the way, (fake) Scholar, you actually use a man whom the GB has mentioned as a loathed apostate as a basis for believing that 607 was the date of Jerusalems destruction? This isn't a scholar, he is a man without a country, or a religion.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    So who are the so-called "non JW scholars who support 607 BCE" that pseudo-scholar refers to?

    Jerry Leslie = Russellite Bible Student (http://www.biblestudents.net/library/datingthedeolation.pdf), who uses Russell and Morton Edgar's Pyramid Passages as sources.

    Julian T Gray = Russellite Bible Student (http://www.biblestudents.net/library/whichisthetruechronology_juliangray.pdf), who uses Russell and Edgar as sources.

    Paul S Johnson = Russellite Bible Student (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_S._L._Johnson), who broke very publically with Rutherford.

    Morton Edgar = Russellite Bible Student ( http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/treatises/edgar%20gpp1.htm ), who wrote extensively on the Great Pyramid and who broke from Rutherford.

    Charles F Redeker = Russellite Bible Student (http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/70yrs.htm), who uses Russell and Edgar as sources.

    LOL, they are all non-JWs for one reason -- they broke with the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society and follow other Bible Student groups. In other words, by pseudo-scholar's definition, they are apostates. Pseudo-scholar is citing apostate sources for support. Yet he doesn't mention this detail; they are "non-JWs" who could be cited as corroborating independently the dates that the Society provides. Interesting that all the "non-JW" writers mentioned in pseudo-scholar's post are all members of the wider movement that Pastor Charles T. Russell started, regardless of whether or not they are affiliated with the JWs. Interesting that pseudo-scholar did not mention anyone outside of this religious tradition.

  • allelsefails
    allelsefails

    Scholar - you should realize that non-JW scholar would mean non Russellite/pyamidologist scholar as well. The fact that the list you gave us is so ridiculous just undermines your position even more (if you could undermine something that has already collapsed). Please try again on the scholarly support of 607.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Six pages ago I also requested pseudo-scholar to mention any contemporary scholar (unaffiliated with the movements started by Russell) who interprets the dream in Daniel 4 as having another secondary fulfillment pertaining to the establishment of God's kingdom on earth. I am still waiting.

    Same goes with any similar scholar linking the "appointed times of the nations" from Luke with the "seven times" of Daniel 4.

  • allelsefails
    allelsefails

    We haven't even slammed Scholar with the WTS own info on the reigns of Babylonian Monarch's. (quotes available upon request)....... ..... Babylon fell 539 B.C..... Plus Nabonidus 17 years ....... Plus Labashi-Marduk 1 year .... Plus Neriglissar 4 years ..... Plus Evil-Merodach 2 years .... Plus Nebuchadnezzar 43 years ..... Equals start of Nebuchadnezzar's reign 606 B.C. .... Minus Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year .... Date for Destruction 587 B.C. .......... Since the rule of kings take us back only as far as 587 where does the Watchtower add the additional 20 years. They move the rulership by each King back 20 years, and then extend Nabonidus' reign by 20 years. ...... For the Watchtower timeline to be correct Nabonidus needs to have ruled for 36 years, yet the Society admits archaeologists determine he only ruled for 17 years. ..... Watchtower 1968 August 15 p. 491 "Other investigators say this: "The Nabunaid Chronicle . . . states that Sippar fell to Persian forces VII/14/17 [Footnotes]"VII/14/17": The 7th Hebrew month Tishri, 14th day, 17th year of Nabonidus' reign. (Oct. 10, 539), that Babylon fell VII/16/17 (Oct. 12), and that Cyrus entered Babylon VIII/3/17 (Oct. 29). This fixes the end of Nabunaid's reign and the beginning of the reign of Cyrus." I asked about this qoute from Josephus earlier, but got no response. "Nebuchadnezzar, in the eighteenth year of his reign, laid our temple desolate, and so it lay in that state of obscurity for fifty years; but that in the second year of the reign of Cyrus its foundations were laid, and it was finished again in the second year of Darius." (Against Apion Book I, Chapter 21)

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Scholar,

    We could Skype but I am not convinced that this would be a completely productive medium. Your thoughts?

    I don't travel much, but would be pleased to meet some time, if we can arrange something.

    I live in the outer east of Melbourne, near Mount Dandenong.

    Doug

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Understanding the “70 years”.

    The “people of the land” was a political group that was strong enough to install kings Josiah and Jehoahaz. All held an anti-Egyptian stance.

    Later, Nebuchadnezzar removed just the Jewish leadership of the cities but he left the “people of the land” behind.

    The Jewish priestly group, now in captivity, sought an explanation for their plight. God had promised this land to Abraham, but the power now resided with a foreign king. The city’s power brokers, the intelligentsia, had been removed. Only the "people of the land" remained in Judea.

    These exiled priests explained that their current predicament resulted from the people failing to heed the priests and prophets sent by God (that is, themselves).

    So while they were in Babylon, they (the Judahites) wrote or rewrote their history from their own theocratic viewpoint, producing propaganda that framed their history according to their religious viewpoint. Thus in particular Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges and 1 & 2 Kings were written (or rewritten) for their own immediate contemporaries to explain their predicament. Little wonder they expressed a poor opinion of the Israelite kings. It is likely these exiled priests influenced other writings, including Jeremiah and parts of Isaiah.

    I believe the Judahites saw the exile of the Israelites and of themselves (“all Israel”) as a single unit. They said that the loss sustained by each group of clans resulted from the same cause – their disobedience to God as proclaimed by the priests and prophets. The priests wanted to regain the position of power they had enjoyed. Have a look at the extremist behaviour and demands for sectarian purity made by Ezra, especially his hatred towards the “people of the land”, claiming they had desecrated the nation’s purity by marrying wives from other nations while the leadership had been exiled.

    According to these religionist historians, the Captivity was forewarned for centuries, not by a single statement from Jeremiah. He uttered an unconditional declaration, not a prophecy, that Babylon would be dominant for 70 years. He later pleaded for the city (with its priestly power base) to be saved from destruction, but when the people rebelled against the decree of continued servitude to Babylon, this was the final straw.

    Prophecy is conditional; God would have restored the Israelites had they repented. Likewise with the condition of Judah (and Benjamin, of course), their return was conditional upon them calling upon God and confessing their sin.

    After “THE” 70 years of Babylon’s rule had ended, Daniel was concerned that the sanctuary still remained desolate. When Daniel understood that Jeremiah said God demanded wholesale confession, Daniel fell to his knees, confessing the people’s sin, as he faced the city that was the subject of his prayer.

    But the ongoing struggle between the priestly class and the “people of the land” who had remained behind ensured the sanctuary was not restored until decades after Babylon’s seventy years of dominance had ended. The "people of the land" fought bitterly to prevent the priestly class regaining the power they once held.

    The Jewish writers thus saw the destruction of the city and its temple as the result of centuries of disobedience to God as proclaimed by them, not due to any prophecy by Jeremiah. They understood that the 70 years referred to the period of Babylon’s dominance.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit