by allelsefails 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Scholar said: "The date 607 BCE is the only possibile date for the Fall of Jerusalem according to the Bible"
Scholar,
I am still waiting for a SCRIPTURE that shows that 537 is the ONLY POSSIBLE date for the return of the exiles to Jerusalem. But I'm not going to get it, am I, because you don't have one.
You continue to insult others from this platform, yet you have been caught in a lie. Are you not even the least bit ashamed?
BFS
isaacaustin
Post 1287
The context of Jeremiah 25 indicates that the desolation and servitude would beof a duration of seventy years. Plain and simple. Jeremiah describes the fact of the land being desolated, the domination of Judah by Babylon and the taking of Exiles, these events were fulfilled within the seventy years period as this is the only time reference that he describes. Josephus describes the situation in some detail and he agrees with this understanding of the seventy year period as traditionally presented by the 'celebrated WT scholars.
Your 609-539 BCE hypothesis does not work because the beginning date is too fuzzy and the end date finds the Jews still in Babylon as exiles serving the current king of Babylon. It does not work.
scholar JW
No pseudo, it does not. The context indicates a servitude of the nations of the world to Babylon for 70 years....plain and simple. The 70 years ends with Babylon punsihed- which they were in 539 by the Medes/Persians...Then, AFTER the 70 yrs were completed the Jews would return. You have no understanding of this whatsoever and the use of the word scholar should never be used with you.
Scholar, if you show me from the Bible only that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C., I will pioneer next month. Keep in mind that I am asking you to peg the date in history. Instead of repeatedly claiming that you can, just do it.
isaacaustin
Post 1285
What Jeremiah clearly states and as agreed by Daniel, Zechariah and Ezra is that the seventy years was a period of desolation-servitude and exile from the Fall until the Return confirmed by Josephus.
scholar JW
Quite simply psedo, no he didn't. Go reread.
isaacaustin
Post 1293
Sounds like the cowards way out that when one finds oneself in a hole then blame the Bible. Celebrated WT scholars work with the same biblical data and they have no problem with deriving a precise date . This is why using a 'regnal based' chronology as opposed to an 'event based' chronology is superior because it is not hamstrung by different dating methods used by individual writers. This is one very good reason that the methodology used in deriving the precise date of 607 BCE is far superior than the secular chronology that cannot determione a precise date for the Fall. Such confussion proves that the current methodology has problems which is not the case with biblical chronology.
scholar JW
Pseudo, there is nothing wrong woth the Bible here. I do not blame them. God simply did not see fit to have some complex sort of calculation chock full of unrelated texts, misinterpretations and violations of mathematical rules to arrive at the end of the gentile times. Thus he did not reveal in scripture to us the date of the destruction of Jerusalem. He did however have some historical clues included, whcih when combined with verifiable historical data point to 586/7 as the date Jeru was destroyed. The 'celebrated wt scholars', as you call them don't work with Biblical data- they work with WT drivel to try to substantiate their own self-proclaimed authority. 586/7 is quite accurate as to the fall of Jerusalem...and regnal-based chronolgy would still point to 586-7 so long as it isn't the WT's drawn up regnal chronology. Then again, whether it is precisely 586 or 587 is not important as anything more than the date of Jeru's destruction- since it does not point to or prefigure anything greater.
allelsefails
Poat 45
The entire context of Daniel 4 revolves around the Kingdom of God which was yet in the future but its was typified by the Kingdom of Judah with its installed Monarchy and the intervention of Nebuchadnezzer who played an important role in relation to that typical kingdom. So, this chapter deals with a eschatalogical reality which is more described in the book of Revelation which describes the Escahatology in full detail.
My reply: Wrong again pseudo scholar…Nothing at all in the context indicates anything other than Nebuchadnezzar becoming haughty and having a dream that was fulfilled on him…to put him in his place.
The use of the Aramaic term 'times' has an equivalent with the Greek word 'kairos' meaning 'times' and these terms are eschatalogical formulae so this means that the very vocabulary used by Daniel and John are prophetic going far beyond history but being based on history which is the substance of prophecy.
scholar JW
My reply: Simply an assertion, with no basis….as is much of the WT proclamations…
isaacaustin
Post 1284
You may not have read Jonsson but you have been deceived by his propaganda and you are quite mistaken because Jeremiah most certainly stated that the land of Judah would be without an inhabitant and this occcurred during the seventy years of Babylonish domination and desolation of Judah from the Fall until the Return confirmed by Josephus. Jer.25:12 does not state that the seventy years eande with the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE but that after the seventy years had ended then Babylon, its king and territory would be desolated. This clearly happened lomg after the Fall of Babylon. In short, this verse foretells not the Fall of Babylon but its destruction.
My reply: LOL I have not read his material but am deceived by his propaganda. LOL Ok. Jeremiah said that Jerusalem would be desolated without inhabitant. I didn’t deny that. That ended up happening due to their rebelling against serving Babylon- it didn’t have to be that way. It is also clear that this would occur during the interval of the 70 years of Babylonian rule- but not that they would be desolated for the entire 70 year period. The prophecy was of 70 yrs of Babylonian rule- not Judean desolation. Josephus did not confirm this as you say. It takes a selective view of his words to come to that conclusion. Jer 25:12: 12 'Then it will be (U) when seventy years are completed I will (V) punish the king of Babylon and that nation,' declares the LORD, 'for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and (W) I will make it an everlasting desolation. This clearly states that the 70 years end with the fall of Babylon- when seventy years are completed I will (V) punish the king of Babylon and that nation
If you can’t see that then try to see this: Jeremiah 27:10, 11 says 10 "For thus says the LORD, 'When (O) seventy years have been completed for Babylon, I will visit you and fulfill My (P) good word to you, to bring you back to this place.
70 years for Babylon.
I care naught for your opinion of the 'celebrated' ones.
My reply: Of course not. They have taught you everything you know. LOL
The one year error of 586 or 587 is of major concern to scholars as there are a number of published scholarly articles on this subject so this confusion is a big problem for you, further it is 586 that is the preferred option by serious scholars whereas 587 is the apostate option.
My reply: It maybe a big concern for you, it is a point of academic interest for historians…but simply that. Since it has no future application is remains as simply an academic point of debate.
There is no agreement as to the date for the end of the Assyrian World Power so 609 is just a guess which demolished the Babylonish domination hypothesis from 609 -539 BCE. You have a big problem with this.
My reply: Wrong again pseudo (you are told that a lot)….that is not a big problem. And if we did say it was you would have a much bigger one with 537 LOL
scholar JW
Wake up pseudoscholar
isaacaustin
Post 1286
I disagree. The reference in Luke 21:24 to the Gentile Times by our Lord shows by means of the Greek Tense employed that the period was stillin progress and the the us eof kairos for 'times' is a Danielic reference to the 'seven times' which is further explained by the Revelation. Expositors agree that this period is eschatological running uo until the Parousia.,
scholar JW
My reply: LOL The linking of unrelated texts. Sounds like you are simply reading the footnote in the NWT on the Daniel 4 text. You are one of the last people I would take lessons from on Biblical Greek.
Scholar..You tore AlanF to Shred`s?..LOL!!..I was on line reading your debate with him,as it was happening..He beat the crap out of you!!.............................LOL!!...OUTLAW
so Outlaw- you mean you do not beleive that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607BCE (and everyone else is wrong, all other evidence is inaccurate) and that the Bible shows clearly thru some select verses that Jesus would return invisibly in 1914...and examine the relgions of the world...subsequently choosing the International Bible Students to handle his earthly affairs- due to they being the only one's teaching the right things at the right time?
I take it you are not too awed by pseudo-scholar's 'expertise' either? LoL
Scholar,
Since the scriptures do not identify the year 537 BCE as being the date for the return of the exiles, there is thus no scriptural basis for the year 607 BCE being the date for the destruction of Jerusalem, and therefore the marking of the year 1914 CE cannot be based on bible prophecy.
So, if not from scripture, from where was the date 1914 obtained? Are you content with the possibility that you are supporting the teachings of demons?
Or perhaps you might heed Jesus' warning:
"So, if people say to you, 'Listen! He's out on the desert!' don't go; or, 'Look! He's hidden away in a secret room!' don't believe it. For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the east and fills the sky to the western horizon". Matt 24:26 Complete Jewish Bible.
BFS
Barefoot Servant
Post 64
The calculation of 537 BCE for the Return and the related texts have been widely discussed so if you have our publications then you can easily work the matter out. It is not rocket science so if you have the smarts then you can easily research the matter.
scholar JW
