Worshipping Jehovah without all the rules?

by ptucker8357 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • thomas15
    thomas15

    mindmelda, You said: I don't understand the classic Trinity teaching too well either.

    If I may be so bold as to suggest that if you are interested in knowing this teaching why not give the classic Trinity teachers a chance to explain themselves? I will say though that even without having the WT negative teachings pounded into my brain, grasping and understanding the Trinity from a Biblical standpoint was labor intensive for me. And there is more to the story than just the concept of 3 persons in 1 Godhead.

    Regardless, I don't think it is necessary to accept the Trinity to see that the NWT is wrong about Jesus. Just take the English NWT rendering of John 1:1 and diagram the sentence using the normal rules of English grammar. The use of an indefinate article before an impersonal pronoun (a god) seems to indicate that the verse is teaching that the Word (Logos) is one of many. There are three (3) articles in English grammar- a, an & the. Two (2) of them are called indefinate articles (a & an) and one (1) is called a definate article (the). The indefinate refers to, as I said one of many or no one in particular. The definate article (the) is specific.

    For example, suppose we are at a car dealer, I might say to you: "Steve, go pick out a car". In normal understanding, because I use the indefinate article before the subject (a car) I would be communicating the message to you to pick any car on the lot, your choice. But, if I say: "Steve, go pick out one of the chevy's out there"-- because I have used the definate article (the chevy's) I'm being more specific, I have defined the total number of cars in the discussion (only chevy's not ford or honda). Further, If I say: "Steve, pick out the blue chevy S-10 with the cap and vin 12345XX2145145" now we are talking about only one possible vehicle.

    Since the Bible and the WT both agree that there is only one (1) true God, the rendering in John 1:1 in English is not in agreement with the rest of the Bible. Now, just how the translators of the NWT could deny Jesus diety without adding even more unauthorized words in the English rendering is a hard question to answer. That however is not my problem. Regardless of your stance on the inspiration of the Bible, it is hard in my opinion to deny that the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is God. I realize that the WT agrues that Jesus is a mighty god, not God Almighty, but to accept that reasoning you must accept the WT teaching on the matter which is outside of the clear teaching of the Bible. Hence, the WT would be your teacher, not the Bible, Holy Spirit, common sense and or the rules of grammar.

    To further labor that point, the NWT preface states that the Westcott and Hort Greek New Testament was used as the underlying greek for the translation. B.F. Westcott, in his commentary of The Gospel of John is very clear that the correct translation from Greek to English of John 1:1 in the King James Version is correct. Westcott goes into much detail using the Greek to make his claims. Note also that the WT used the KJV from the 1880s until 1950--70 years of insisting that Jesus is a god when the Bible they (the JWs) had opened infront of them stated clearly that Jesus was God.

    I plan on writing a paper on John 1:1 in the English at a point in the near future. I have not touched on the use of "god" vs. "God" in the sentence, is it a pronoun or noun--proper or improper? In the meantime, feel free to advise me of your critical comments on my use of English Grammar rules if you find that you disagree.

    Tom

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    If you'd like a clearer understanding of why the majority of Christendom rejecsts the JW view of the Trinity, please listen to the audio presentation below. RealPlayer will be required to listen to these files.

    http://www.waltermartin.com/audio_clips/trinity.ram (Part 1)

    http://www.waltermartin.com/audio_clips/trinity2.ram (Part 2)

    This presentation is given with a JW audience in mind, so it covers most of the familiar JW objections, etc.

    Whatever you choose to believe, I see no harm in understanding the beliefs of Trinitarians.

    -LWT

  • screwproof
    screwproof

    I still believe in Jehovah God, his Son, and the Holy Spirit as separate entities myself. I do believe they are so alike in charactor that they may seem as one. I have tried to understand the trinity but like others here, cannot grasp it.

    I still believe there is no burning hell, why would God be so mean as to do that?

    But I feel parakeet said it better than anyone.....

    "Your beliefs don't have to make sense to anyone else, as long as they make sense to you and don't harm anyone."

    I have always felt that Jehovah will judge us by your hearts, even when I was an active JW I felt this way. There are to many good people out there who are of different faiths to be destroyed simply because they are not JW's.

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free
    Worshipping Jehovah without all the rules?

    Is this even possible? Isn't religion, any religion, all about imposing rules on people? Most of the bible seems to be rules, with plenty of examples of what happens to those who break the rules. It contains very little that is actually pleasant to read. Even so, religions aren't content with that and feel the need to add even more regulations.

    W

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    "PP - Sorry if I misread your meaning. One thing I have discovered as I have sampled various churches, is that the membership often has a wide variety of ideas and understandings of scripture and no one seems to get overwrought if someone holds a different one from the official doctrine of the church. I attended a Methodist church a few times shortly after leaving the wts and was shocked when they actually encouraged people to read the Bible and try to figure things out for themselves!"

    I think if you can find a church that you're comfortable in and enjoy fellowship in, then just relax and have fun. I know one committed Christian (an ex-JW) who for the first 30 years after leaving the WTS didn't believe the Trinity. However, she wasn't excluded or shunned because of this.

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    @ LeavingWT - Walter is great.

  • mindmelda
    mindmelda

    Um, I don't actually have an issue with John 1:1 or the idea that that NWT is a torturous nitpicking translation. LOL

    It's the logic of the Trinity that I've grappled with until I realize it's a metaphysical teaching and doesn't really have to suit mine or the WTS notions of human reality.

    It's just a way to try to understand the nature of God, which we obviously cannot fully comprehend. It's easier to understand Christ, because he made God manifest in a human manner.

    I do get that much. *G*

  • thomas15
    thomas15

    jack214,

    Well he needs two things... an active force or spirit and a mouthpiece or example of his love and himself.

    With all due respect my friend, God doesn't need anything. He certainly doesn't need anything that we can provide and he doesn't need to create anything to help him. Again, I don't expect anyone to believe the Bible just because I do. What I am saying is no matter where you stand on the validity of the Bible, any fair minded person would have to conclude that the Bible teaches that Jesus is God. You may choose to believe that the Bible is not trustworthy, that is your right, but to say it doesn't teach the divinity of Jesus requires understanding outside of normal comprehension of the English language.

    You raise an interesting point though. The WT goes through much effort to accuse the churches of idolitry. And yet the WT publishes images of things in heaven in violation of Exodus 20:4. The churches technically err in my opinion when they have paintings of Jesus hanging on the wall. Those pictures are supposed to represent the human aspect of the God-man Jesus which is ok is guess but it is not necessary in my opinion to have them as we have no idea what Jesus really looked like.

    Another interesting point jack214 that you bring up has to do with what Jehovah looks like. The Bibles tells us God is a spirit, like the wind and yet man was made in the image of God. What does God mean by image? This is a very good question and I don't have the answer but I intend to someday do the study to find out.

    Take care,

    Tom

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hi,

    ptucker8357-Many of the folks that I talk to tell me that the only way to salvation is through acceptance of Jesus as God.

    Amen! The good book agrees :)

    Acts 4:10-12 (New International Version)

    10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is
    " 'the stone you builders rejected,
    which has become the capstone.' 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

    ptucker8357-I do accept Jesus as the Messiah, as a perfect man that God sent to atone for the sins of Adam, but I don't believe he is God....

    See what you think of these verses

    Matthew 1:23 (New International Version)

    23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"—which means, "God with us."

    John 20:28 (New International Version)

    28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

    I believe there is one God, One Son and One Holy Spirit and they are not three persons in one God... I feel weird whenever I go to another service that exalts the Trinity, as well as some other basic rituals of their religion...

    Am I making sense?

    Maybe it is just the teaching you have received? What do these verses say to you?

    Romans 8:9-11 (New International Version)

    9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

    All the best,

    Stephen

  • wobble
    wobble

    I like many it seems,struggle with how to put into words what I feel now is truth about Jesus, his Father and the Holy Spirit. I believe you should read the Bible and see what it actually says,not what someone tells you it says,

    I also listen to wiser people than me, Ray Franz for instance pointed out to me in an E-mail that it is difficut to talk of the spirit realm,and relationships therein,in human terms,we need the language of Angels as Paul puts it.

    I am convinced though that the WT theology is simplistic in the extreme and uses specious arguments,when you look at all the explanations of the Divinity of Christ and what it means you soon get far beyond asking "who was he praying to" etc.

    not to be-little our posters point of view,but that has been my experience, Watchtower goggles are no way to look for the truth.

    I once read an explanation of the relationship between the Son and Father and Holy Spirit which made wonderful sense,written by an early Christadelphian writer, and they don't believe in the Creed type explanation of the trinity,if I can locate it I will post it.

    The Bible does though use the expresson for Jesus "Son of God" so many many times,and then talks of God his Father as seperate,so surely we are being encouraged by scripture to anthropomorphise to that degree and understand the truth in this matter in at least those familial and indeed familiar ways.

    I would be suspiscious of anyone who is too sure of themselves in this matter and insists their point of view is the one and only,make up your own mind as far as you can,and keep questioning.

    I am sure too that Jesus is The Way the Truth and the Life,and no one comes to the Father,except through Him.

    Love

    Wobble

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit