Worshipping Jehovah without all the rules?

by ptucker8357 49 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  thomas15

  Well said Wobble.

  Tom
• 

  Chalam

  Hi again :)

  ptucker8357-My issues with the trinity and the deity of Jesus really has nothing to do with what I was taught as a bible student. It just defies logic to me and, being a very logical person in most other aspects of my life, I can't believe something without some sort of real information to back it up. I guess some would say that I lack faith, but as several have mentioned in this thread, there are many examples that would make you question the trinity idea ... (maybe I just don't understand it well enough)...

  Does God defy logic? How can He be everywhere at once? How can He be at every point in time equally or exist outside of time? How can He know all things? Any one of these attributes is impossible for me to fully comprehend but I believe them.

  And why did Jesus make it a point to say the Father was greater than him?

  This explains that question perfectly

  Philippians 2:5-7 (New International Version)

  5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
  6 Who, being in very nature God,
  did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
  7 but made himself nothing,
  taking the very nature of a servant,
  being made in human likeness.

  Also if Jesus was God, who resurrected him when he died?

  Jesus, the Holy Spirit and The Father!

  John 2:19-22 (New International Version)

  19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

  20 The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

  Romans 8:11 (English Standard Version)

  11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

  Acts 10:39-40 (New International Version)

  39 "We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.

  And another... The night prior to Jesus's death, He looks to his Father and says, "Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me." Was He talking to Himself?!?!?!

  They are three persons, one God. See here for another example, the Holy Spirit intercedes (prays) for us to The Father

  Romans 8:26-27 (New International Version)

  26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will.

  Furthermore, how can the Holy Spirit be a person? I think the idea of the Spirit being an active force of God is spot on... One for the JWs, I guess...

  The Holy Spirit can be lied to and is called God here.

  Acts 5:3-4 (New International Version)

  3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

  The Holy Spirit can be grieved and blasphemed

  Ephesians 4:30 (New International Version)

  30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

  Mark 3:28 (New International Version)

  28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them.

  Also speak.

  Mark 13:11 (New International Version)

  11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

  Is conscious

  1 Corinthians 2:11 (New International Version)

  11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

  Is living

  1 Corinthians 3:16 (New International Version)

  16 Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?

  Helps us

  Philippians 1:19 (New International Version)

  Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, 19 for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.

  Counsels us and guides us. Notice here how once again, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus who comes to us (v18).

  John 14:15-18 (New International Version)

  Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

  15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Same here

  John 14:26-28 (New International Version)

  26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

  28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

  All the best,

  Stephen
• 

  Johnny

  http://www.heraldmag.org/
• 

  thomas15

  jack214,

  I think you and I are arguing the differences between Arminianism and Calvinism (or some variation of one of the other), which is (not to insult anyone) beyond the scope of this thread. I do on the face of things disagree with some of what you say. I therefore stand down with respect to further responses directly or indirectly to you on this thread for the sake of Christian brotherly love as you are correct on the most important point you bring up.

  Yours truly,

  Tom
• 

  caliber

  You make perfect sense... it's just that now you are on a road that does not consist of hard and fast truths.

  You will forever search and discover more.. nothing wrong with that.. uncertainty is not a sin ... just be true

  to yourself always !

  To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in someone else's."

  Cal
• 

  Satanus

  The name jehovah does not appear in the christian part of the bible. Isn't that strange? He is the god of the ot, wherein his name was written thousands of times. That's you instruction book, if you want to worship jehovah. You have the mosaic law to follow, in order to be able to worship jehovah. Who has more rules, the ot or the wt society? That seems the logical conclusion.

  S
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Satanus,

  Great point!

  The name jehovah does not appear in the christian part of the bible. Isn't that strange?

  Not really if one read's the bible for what it is.

  Matthew 1:23 (New International Version)

  23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"—which means, "God with us."

  Matthew 2:1-2 (New International Version)

  The Visit of the Magi

  1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

  John 20:27-28 (New International Version)

  27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

  28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

  All the best, Stephen
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Screwproof,

  I still believe in Jehovah God, his Son, and the Holy Spirit as separate entities myself. I do believe they are so alike in charactor that they may seem as one. I have tried to understand the trinity but like others here, cannot grasp it.

  Well I think you have grasped it already! :)

  Hebrews 1:3 (New International Version)

  3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

  Matthew 28:19 (New International Version)

  19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

  I still believe there is no burning hell, why would God be so mean as to do that?

  The issue is not God's character but His holiness and His justice. God is holy and has made a way for us to be righteous before Him.

  Hebrews 10:28-31 (New International Version)

  28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

  But I feel parakeet said it better than anyone.....

  "Your beliefs don't have to make sense to anyone else, as long as they make sense to you and don't harm anyone."

  Do the beliefs of JWs trample Jesus under their feet? They say He is not God but "a god". They say He did not raise from the dead in His body but as a "spirit creature". Does calling the Wonderful Counselor, Everlasting Father, Mighty God, Prince Of Peace a "creature" trample Him or exalt Him?!

  I have always felt that Jehovah will judge us by your hearts, even when I was an active JW I felt this way. There are to many good people out there who are of different faiths to be destroyed simply because they are not JW's.

  Jesus will judge our hearts, our words ("For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks" Matthew 12:34 Luke 6:45) and our actions...

  Romans 10:9 (New International Version)

  9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

  Matthew 12:36 (New International Version)

  36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

  James 2:26 (New International Version)

  26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

  All the best, Stephen
• 

  Balsam

  ptucker8357,

  I struggled with the same feelings when I left the organization in 2001. But I persevered reading what biblical scholars have to say concerning the translating of the bible, and what they know about what we read to day in english and what the meaning was orginally. Bart Erhman is a biblical scholar I respect, Robert Funk, John Dominic Crossan, Karen Armstrong, Robert W. Funk are some of the others.

  I got to thinking one day, "Why would an all powerful god, that knows everything about life and living need punny flesh driven humans to worship him"? It made no sense unless he was an ego driven being that may not be looking after his creation in a loving way. If we as a lowly human wouldn't want our children to worship us as parents, but want them to love, respect and honor us as their parents why would Jehovah need to be worshipped?

  WORSHIP: reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred. To be obedient and unquestioning of the one worshipped.

  Just a thought worth thinking about.

  Ruth
• 

  Johnny

  It IS interesting though that the tetragrammaton DOES appear in the original Aramaic manuscripts of the NT.

  I would argue that those manuscripts reflect the original writings closer than the Greek translations.