space.com dates Noah's flood to 2350 B.C.

by aChristian 251 Replies latest jw friends

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Clash,

    You (or whoever's writing you copied, cut and pasted) wrote: The local flood theory implies that the Indians in North America, the natives in Africa, the Scandinavians, the Chinese, etc., were not affected by the flood. They escaped God's judgment on sin. If so, what could Christ possibly have meant when He likened the coming judgment of all men to the judgment of “all” men (Matthew 24:37-39) in the days of Noah?

    The obvious answer is "all" the residents of Noah's land, people who had "all" heard the message of "Noah, a preacher of righteousness," and failed to respond to it. (2 Pet. 2:5) But that God did not take the lives of those in other parts of then widely populated earth. Why? For two reasons. One, because they had not heard Noah's preaching warning them to repent of their unrighteous ways. And two, because the ark God had Noah build was large enough to provide safe refuge for any and all in Noah's land who may have repented, but it was too small and too far away to save all people in the then widely populated world from the waters of a "global" flood.

    Of course, this raises the question, "If the judgment of Noah's day was not a global one, will the judgment that will take place when Christ returns be a global one?" After all, as Clash pointed out, Christ did compare the two.

    Many believe that God will soon kill everyone on earth except true Christians. However, the Bible does not actually teach that. It is entirely possible that Christ is returning to judge only the Christian world. Two-thirds of the earth's population has never even heard the good news of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India. Some believe that God will soon kill all of these people. I think they are wrong. This does not sound like the God of love, justice and mercy I worship.

    One thing that leads me to believe this is an incorrect understanding of scripture is that that the Bible tells us that "Judgment begins with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17) Jesus also said those who will rule as kings with Him will "judge the 12 tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30) To me this indicates that when Christ returns and draws all true Christians to Himself (Matt. 24:31), they will then determine who among those who have heard the good news of Jesus Christ and not taken it to heart are deserving of death. "The 12 tribes of Israel," spoken of in Luke 22:30, I believe refers to all those who have heard the good news preached by those whom Galatians 6:16 calls "the Israel of God." Remember, the literal "12 tribes of Israel" had all heard the Law of Moses, but few had taken it to heart.

    Remember too that it was only the city of Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD, not the entire Roman empire, after those in Jerusalem who heeded Christ's words of warning had escaped. And the judgment which came upon First Century Jerusalem has long been understood by Christians to have foreshadowed the judgment which will take place when Christ returns.

    Interestingly, Revelation chapters 8 and 9 talk quite a bit about "a third of the world" being judged. And by population, the part of the world claiming Christianity as its religion is almost exactly one-third. (See The World Almanac 1998, page 654)

    As "Faithful" has pointed out, if Clash's global flood understanding is correct, why has he been unable and/or unwilling to defend it when asked to do so here several times? I believe his silence speaks volumes.

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    Question to Achristian are you in favor of some kind of universal salvation of man who has not heard the gospel? What do you do with Romans 1:18-32?

  • clash_city_rockers
    clash_city_rockers

    aChristian in his hetrodoxy posts:

    Many believe that God will soon kill everyone on earth except true Christians. However, the Bible does not actually teach that. It is entirely possible that Christ is returning to judge only the Christian world. Two-thirds of the earth's population has never even heard the good news of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India. Some believe that God will soon kill all of these people. I think they are wrong. This does not sound like the God of love, justice and mercy I worship.

    What do you do with Gen 6:7

    "7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

    Your mishandaling of the biblical words and divorcing them from thier contects shows that you were never tought any skills in biblical exegisis.
    Take a class over at Calvin Seminary.
  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Clash asked me, "Are you in favor of some kind of universal salvation of man who has not heard the gospel?"

    No. I believe salvation is not possible apart from the gospel. I have only suggested that God may choose not to take the lives of anyone who has not heard the gospel when Christ returns to judge this world. I also believe God may give all people an opportunity to hear, and then either accept or reject the gospel, before their final judgment. God will then be able to know if their acceptance of the gospel at that time is genuine. Or possibly God will judge all people based on His ability to know how they would have reacted to the gospel if they had had it properly presented to them. If this is the case, I believe, "This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ." (Romans 2:16)

    Clash, why is it I am willing to answer all your questions and those of others, concerning my belief that the flood of Noah's day was a very large local flood, but you have not been willing to answer the questions I and others have here asked you, concerning your belief that the flood was global?

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Clash asked: What do you do with Gen 6:7? ... "And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

    Change the word "earth" to "land," as in the land of Noah. By the way, that is what the New American Standard Bible does in this verse. Once that is done, a reasonable person will have no trouble understanding that God was then saying that He regretted creating the unrighteous people who then inhabited the land of Noah. He could not have been saying that He regretted creating the entire human race, because Noah and his family were part of the human race and God did not regret creating them.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    aC,

    How do you understand the 2nd day of creation in Gen.1:6 where God caused a dividing of the waters in the heavens and on earth?
    And
    On the 1st day caused light to come to be, and on the 4th day caused the Sun and Moon to apear.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • aChristian
    aChristian

    DW,

    You asked: How do you understand the 2nd day of creation in Gen.1:6 where God caused a dividing of the waters in the heavens and on earth? ... And On the 1st day caused light to come to be, and on the 4th day caused the Sun and Moon to apear.

    I hope you don't mind one of my long answers. : )

    To begin with, to properly understand the Bible's first chapter, I am convinced we must accept the fact that its author did not intend for us to understand the "days" he there referred to as being literal 24 hour days. I have found that once we do this all apparent discrepancies between Genesis chapter one and the findings of modern science concerning the history of the universe, the earth and life on earth can be easily reconciled.

    A basic understanding of the original language in which Genesis was written supports this conclusion. Genesis was written in the ancient Hebrew language. The word "day" in that language was "Yom." It is widely acknowledged by scholars of the ancient Hebrew language that "Yom" was not just used by ancient Hebrews to refer to a 24 hour period of time. In fact, they tell us "Yom" had "several meanings." And they inform us that one of its meanings was "a period of time of unspecified duration." (see Vines Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, 1985, pg. 54)

    Today we often use the word "day" to refer to a period of time much longer than 24 hours. For instance, we might say, "In my father's day they did things differently." Or we might refer to "the day of the dinosaurs." That the author of Genesis chapter one also at times used the Hebrew word for "day" to refer to a period of time longer than a mere 24 hours is in fact made quite clear from that chapter's own context. For even though in Genesis chapter one he wrote that God had created "the heavens and the earth" in six "days," only a few verses later he wrote of "the day (singular) that the Lord made earth and heaven." (Gen. 2:4 ) So, from what Bible scholars tell us, and from the context of Genesis itself, we have good reasons to believe that the author of Genesis may have used the Hebrew word for "day" to refer to a very long period of time such as an "age" or an "era."

    Next, if we remember that "days" which are actually ages or eras, can and do often overlap, we will have very little trouble seeing that the Genesis story of creation does not contradict modern science. For instance, today we are living in what modern historians have called "the industrial age." But after that age began, and while it continued, they tell us "the space age" began. Then after "the space age" began, and while it and "the industrial age" continued, they tell us "the computer age" began.

    It is my belief that the writer of Genesis chapter one used the word "day" just as we often do, to refer to an age or era. And I believe that he there referred to ages or eras which overlapped, just as historians often do today. I will here show that when we understand Genesis chapter one in this way, the history of our universe and of our earth there recorded fully agrees with the findings of modern science.

    The time frames which will here be referred to are as given in The History Of Life On Earth - An Illustrated Chronicle Of An Evolving Planet, by William K.Hartman & Ron Miller, 1997

    Genesis 1:1-5, "Day" One.
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning, the first day.

    I believe this age, which may be called "the age of matter and light," began about 15 billion years ago with the Big Bang and continued up to the time God created mankind. During this time God created all of the physical heavens including our earth. Shortly after earth reached its present size light first pierced its black soot filled skies and, from the perspective of earth's surface, cycles of day and night began. Since new stars continued to form and new days and nights continued to occur all during this 15 billion year time period, I believe this 1st "day" / age of creation continued to run all the way up until the time God created His last totally new and different creation, human beings.

    Genesis 1:6-8, "Day" Two.
    And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning, the second day.

    I believe this age, which may be called "the age of water and sky," began about 4.4 billion years ago. At that time earth's ancient atmosphere was up to 70 times as dense as it is today. The young hot earth was filling its primitive atmosphere with water vapor at a prodigious rate. Yet the earth and its atmosphere were too hot to allow condensation to take place. But then, as the earths surface and atmosphere cooled enough to permit the due point to be reached, rain finally began to fall. It then fell continually for thousands of years to produce a global ocean. When the rains finally stopped clear skies at long last appeared above this global ocean. And above these clear skies appeared an unbroken global cloud cover. God had separated the waters which had filled earth's primordial atmosphere, waters which first existed in the form of heavy steam and then as an
    apparently never-ending global rain. God had separated earth's waters with a "sky," by forming clouds above this sky and seas below this sky. This situation, a clear sky separating the continually forming clouds from the continually forming seas, would continue up until the time God created mankind. So, I believe, this 2nd "day" / age of creation also continued up until that time.

    Genesis 1: 9-13, "Day" Three.
    And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning, the third day.

    I believe this age, which may be called "the age of land and vegetation," began 4.3 billion years ago. At that time land masses began to rise from earth's global ocean. However, not until about 450 million years ago did vegetation begin to cover the land. That the land and the vegetation growing from it were referred to by the author of Genesis chapter one as one creative time period, seems easy to understand. For with their roots in the soil the plants which cover the land are truly one with the land. Since various types of vegetation continued to develop up to the time of mankind's creation, I believe this 3rd creative "day" / age of creation also continued up until the time of man's creation.

    Genesis 1:14-19, "Day" Four.
    And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning, the fourth day.

    I believe this age, which may be called "the age of star gazing," began 4.2 billion years ago. Even though earth's thick steamy atmosphere had cleared by condensing into rain nearly 200 million years earlier, from earth's surface the sun, moon and stars remained hidden from view, blocked by earth's thick unbroken cloud cover. Scientists tell us that from earth's surface an observer would have first been able to see these heavenly bodies about 4.2 billion years ago. For it was then that the clouds first began to break up in some areas. However, the dense largely CO2 atmosphere which then existed produced very hazy skies over most of earth's surface would have allowed only an unclear view of the sun, moon and stars from earth's surface. A fully transparent atmosphere did not develop for another 3.5 billion years, until plant life had fully changed earth's atmosphere replacing hazy CO2 with clear oxygen. I believe this 4th creative "day" / age continued up until the creation of man, since only then could the sun, moon and stars begin being used by man "as signs" "to mark seasons and days and years." (Gen. 1:14)

    It is important here to note that it is the Hebrew verb "Asa" which Gen. 1:16 uses in reference to the sun, moon, and stars being "made" by God on the fourth "day." And Hebrew lexicons tell us that "Asa" does not connote "the absolute newness of the object" that has been made, as does the Hebrew verb "Bara" used elsewhere in Genesis chapter one. Rather, we are told that "Asa" primarily connotes "the fashioning of" preexisting materials. This being so, I believe the writer of Genesis was telling us that God caused the preexisting sun, moon and stars to first become visible from earth's surface during this fourth creative period of time. (see Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, by Harris, Archer & Waltke, 1980, Vol.2, pg. 701)

    Genesis 1: 20-23, "Day" Five.
    And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water of the seas, and let birds increase on the earth." And there was evening, and there was morning, the fifth day.

    I believe this age, which may be called "the age of life in the sea and in the air," began 3.9 billion years ago. At that time the first one-celled organisms appeared in earth's oceans. The first birds, however, did not appear on earth until another 3.7 billion years had passed. That sea creatures and birds are spoken of in Genesis chapter one as having come into existence during the same time period may simply have been a somewhat arbitrary decision on the part of the author to discuss all "non-land-bound" creatures before discussing all "land-bound" creatures. Since new types of sea creatures and birds continued to appear on earth up until the time God created man, I believe this 5th creative "day" / age continued to run up until that time also.

    Genesis 1: 24-31, "Day" Six.
    And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let Us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground, everything that has the breath of life in it, I give every green plant for food." And it was so. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was
    evening, and there was morning, the sixth day.

    I believe this age, which may be called "the age of land creatures and man," began about 430 million years ago. At that time insects became the first animals to colonize land. During this 6th "day" of creation many species of animals appeared on the earth and later fell into extinction, including the dinosaurs. Finally God "created" man. I believe He did so by putting into highly evolved primates moral consciences and an awareness of the possible existence of a Creator. I believe God also then gave His new creations eternal spirits.

    Before saying that the Genesis account of creation contradicts science we should also remember that Genesis uses the Hebrew word for "create," Bara, only in describing God's bringing into existence the heavens and earth, life in the sea and mankind. All other kinds of life, vegetation and animals, Genesis tells us, were not directly "created" by God but were "produced" by "the land." (Gen. 1:11,12, 24) And, as I mentioned earlier, Hebrew lexicons tell us that "Bara," Hebrew for "create," refers to "the initiation" of something, while the Hebrew words translated as "produced" refer to "the fashioning of," or the changing shape of, preexisting materials. These things being so, I believe Genesis chapter one not only allows for the possibility that God used evolutionary processes to bring about all life on earth, but actually teaches us that He did so.

    I believe that the foregoing demonstrates that Genesis chapter one does not contradict the findings of modern science. Other similar understandings of Genesis' first chapter have also been put forward which fully agree with the findings of modern science. I am convinced that the only things pertaining to the Bible's first chapter that are truly at odds with scientific realities are some peoples' misunderstandings of the information that is there presented.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    aC,

    Thanks for the long post, which I feel was relatively short concidering the subject.

    Happy new year btw.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    "I just want to promote a strong doctrinal bible believing Christianity that has a high view of prepositional nature of scripture."

    Clash,

    If you are sincere I applaud you, if aChristian is sincere I applaud him also.

    But truly, it is my firm belief that even though you both may be sincere, you will without a doubt both be deeply disappointed. I do not say that with glee, I say it with sadness, heartfelt sadness.

    Sincerely,
    IW

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    IW,

    What on earth do you mean?

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?

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