Challenge #2 (40 Ways) ~ to Greg Stafford / Jason BeDhun / Serious JWs / Fred Coulter (CofG)

by 4examp 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Narkissos

  So, 4Examp, when Peter is "filled with Holy Spirit" (pleistheis pneumatos hagiou) in Acts 4:8, it's "awesome power" because there is no article, and when the apostles are "all filled with THE Holy Spirit" (eplèsthèsan hapantes tou hagiou pneumatos) in v. 31 it's a "person" because the article is there?

  Or, when THE Holy Spirit falls (ouch) on the hearers of the word (epepesen to pneuma to hagion) in 10:44, or the free gift of THE Holy Spirit is poured out on them (hè dôrea tou hagiou pneumatos ekkekutai) in the next verse it's a "person," just because there is an article?

  Interestingly those texts are not in your list -- except 4:8 which seems to fit your analysis.

  (Btw, I just had a quick look at the occurrences of pneuma in theGreek text of Acts and didn't check your list systematically, but I happened to notice that 8:39 is in the wrong place; you count it in the "definite article" list although it is anarthrous...)

  Bottom line: the study of personal and impersonal traits ascribed to the "Holy Spirit" is quite an interesting topic, BUT the presence or absence of the article is definitely not a valid criterion to distinguish them (as both Leolaia and I have pointed out already).
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  4examp

  I apologize for any errors. Being in Germany, I don't have access to my books & latest files.
  I agree that some texts are not as clear & straightforward as I would prefer.
  Overall (& in the overwhelming majority), the distinction between Person & Force does show up if the def. article is present or absent.

  Bottom Line #1: WT statements are 100% refuted, & do not pass the Test of Agreement with Scripture.
  Bottom Line #2: Eternal & catastrophic consequences don't fall (no ouch) on those who believe The Holy Spirit is a Person.
  Bottom Line #3: I really appreciate your input.
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  4examp

  I apologize for any errors. Being in Germany, I don't have access to my books & latest files.
  I agree that some texts are not as clear & straightforward as I would prefer.
  Overall (& in the overwhelming majority), the distinction between Person & Force does show up if the def. article is present or absent.

  Bottom Line #1: WT statements are 100% refuted, & do not pass the Test of Agreement with Scripture.
  Bottom Line #2: Eternal & catastrophic consequences don't fall (no ouch) on those who believe The Holy Spirit is a Person.
  Bottom Line #3: I really appreciate your input.
• 

  Narkissos

  Hallo 4Examp,

  I appreciate the honesty (and humour) of your response. :)

  Overall (& in the overwhelming majority), the distinction between Person & Force does show up if the def. article is present or absent.

  What you do not seem to realise (yet) is that the difference (and apparent correspondence) is not directly linked to the kind of action or metaphor denoted or connoted by the verb (personal or impersonal) but rather to the syntaxical function of the noun pneuma (or the pronoun, relative, etc., standing for pneuma) in the sentence: if it is subject (nominative) -- when the pneuma does something, be it "speaking" like "somebody" or "falling" or "being poured out" like "something," -- or direct object (accusative) -- when something is done to the pneuma, e.g. "grieving," "deceiving," "tempting/provoking" or "resisting," -- the article is generally necessary because its absence would suggest indefinite sense ("a spirit" among others). This is not the case when it is attribute (predicate) of subject (nominative) or object (accusative), which requires absence of article even if the sense is personal, or an indirect complement (dative; e.g. being baptised, filled in/with pneuma; here the presence or absence of the article is mostly a stylistic issue).

  It reminded me of the old joke about the scientist studying a performing flea: he pulls out one leg and says "jump" -- the flea jumps; another leg: the flea still jumps. When he has removed all legs the flea doesn't jump and the scientist concludes: when all legs are removed the flea gets deaf. (Illustration of ascribing effects to the wrong cause.) ;)
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  4examp

  This reminds of when I learned of the WT's basis for saying The Spirit was a just a Force.
  - neuter gender of pneuma
  - personificagtion
  - no definite article
  - no personal name
  - no personal voice
  - association with "other" impersonal things (e.g. fire, oil, water).

  To overcome my A.D.D., I must super-focus (which is impossible in present circumstances).
  When I finished my study & research & presented the material to JW elders, one of them agreed that I had refuted each point, but that together "AND WITH A RUBBER BAND they stood as a WHOLE" -- i.e. a "hole in his head".

  I will seriously study all the input, but as you know I am quite "slow".
  Overhaul? Pehaps (not). Refinements? For sure.
  In the meantime, I will share more Scripture summaries, soon.