Show-down with elder at the kingdom hall

by Hobo Ken 116 Replies latest jw friends

  • Hobo Ken
    Hobo Ken

    This is podcast 8 in the death or obedience series.

    This was recorded on Christmas Day 2008. After our last visit from two local elders my wife felt she could no longer be known as a Jehovah's Witness and had chosen to disassociate herself in November 2008. We had been on a family holiday and had returned to find that one of the local elders who had visited us had warned off my mother-in-law from having anything to do with my wife - her daughter. He also made false statements about one of my children. I decided to confront this elder at the Kingdom Hall. This podcast is the recording of our conversation. Notice how he denies making such statements to my mother-in-law and falsely accuses me of teaching her beliefs contrary to Jehovah's Witnesses. I ask whether it's a sin to no longer be a Jehovah's Witness?

    He also clearly states his position regarding the worship of Jesus. I firmly believe that as a result of this conversation this elder initiated judicial proceedings against me the following month. Podcasts from this judicial hearing will follow shortly. here is podcast-8 Also free on itunes Matt.

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    unbelievable.

    he has no idea - or does he? Snake comes to mind.

    Thanks for posting these podcasts. A real glimpse into the real world of the high and mighty.

    I don't know how you keep so cool.

    wp

  • No Apologies
    No Apologies

    I've learned the hard way confronting an elder although some times beneficial and in some cases even necessary, it's usually a no-win scenario...

    I firmly believe that as a result of this conversation this elder initiated judicial proceedings against me the following month.

    I rest my case.

    No Apologies

  • KAYTEE
    KAYTEE

    hoboken,

    Having had many, many a run-in with elders, I was impressed with the way you tackled the situation.

    I don’t think I could have kept my cool as well as you did.

    The secret here is what you have done, that is, to record the conversation.

    On too many occasions I have found that they will lie their way out of a situation (it seems second nature for them to use this tactic).

    My wife and I have been out now for 7 years, the longer we are out the MORE we see them for what they really ARE.

    Hope all your family come out together intact.

    KT

  • passwordprotected
    passwordprotected

    Once the JC podcasts go up you'll see how this one particular elder lies, manipulates and uses his (considerable) influence to get his own way.

    When he describes Hobo's wife as worse than an adulterer, it's amazing Hobo didn't clock him one.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The elder sounds a bit like a cornered rat to start with, but then he gets more confident as he gets into his stride. It's a bit rich that he complains about being "caught on the hop" because from what I gather elders love catching other people on the hop when presenting them with accusations of "wrongdoing".

    Arguing about the meaning of verses supporting or not supporting shunning is always going to be a dead end in my view. Some of the Bible writers had pretty drachonian views on those things and Witnesses can always point to that and say they are only following the Bible. If Corinthians doesn't quite fit there are other verses they can point to.

    I would prefer to stick to basic point that it is fundamentally indecent for anyone, whether they are called an elder or whatever, to visit someone and tell them they should not speak to their daughter. It's just perverse. And whether they can point to a verse that supports it or not is neither here nor there. He knows it is perverse, you can tell that by the way he feels a need to qualify it by saying "not associate socially" and that they have to be "humanitarian about it". Those are weaselly words. What does it mean to say you can associate with your daughter but not "socially"? It's pathetic. If a verse in the Bible supports it it is still pathetic. That's the part of the discussion where he is more uncomfortable in my opinion, because it is hard for anyone to try and appear reasonable while saying such ridiculous things as a mother should not associate with her daughter. To move the discussion on to whether we should worship Jesus or 607 is actually to let him off the hook, because Witnesses are always more comfortable defending dates and abstract ideas rather than the obscene reality of some of their policies.

    I honestly can't see what bringing 607 into the discussion helps anything. The main thing that is wrong about Jehovah's Witnesses is not that they are empirically wrong about historical dates, or interpreting various scriptures, the main thing that is wrong with them is that they prefer to follow rigid rules over applying basic human kindness.

  • AlexHall
    AlexHall

    Im impressed about the way you explain yourself to him. To keep that calm and logically answering him. Keep up the good work, your doing something good!

  • dozy
    dozy

    Looking forward to hearing this when I get the chance – I’m enjoying this series of podcasts and thanks to Hobo for recording them.

    The podcasts have confirmed to me:

    (1) Discussions with elders inevitably leads to DF / DA , even if their motive is to try to “help” (as they would see it) the individual.

    (2) Elders , even experienced ones , are hopeless in trying to deal with “apostate” cases. I’ve been surprised just how ham fisted the elders approach is in these cases (and bear in mind that these are generally experienced , high profile elders.) It seems to me that most elders simply are out of their depth in dealing with cases – it takes them completely out of their comfort zone. By rigidly defending the WTS in everything (like RH did in the first 2 calls) they gives themselves absolutely nowhere to go. I think that in most cases they actually exacerbate the situation and preempt judicial action when it is often unnecessary (eg the “apostate” isn’t trying to influence others or they simply have learned adverse information and just want to leave). The easy conclusion is simply to DF (or ideally to persuade the “erring one” to hand in a DA letter).

  • viva
    viva

    This is in such direct contradiction with the July 2009 Awake that says a person should not be cut off from thier family for changing thier religous beliefs. Sickening.

  • awildflower
    awildflower

    This is my first time listening to one of your podcasts, since I'm pretty knew here. Something that struck me that this elder said, was that ' Anne is confused and that is a common reaction to this type of situation (leaving the org)' , not in those exact words of course. That was so frustrating to me because, I don't know about any of you but since my fade, I have never felt better! What this elder considers 'confused', I would say, in my case, was my mind opening up to the endless possiblilities of life. I've been flooded with more knowledge from books other than the WTS literature, then at any other time in my life and to me it's been exciting to learn new things! Yes, at first I would say I got a little overwhelmed, like you would be walking into a huge buffet, but once I found my balance, I've learned to enjoy everything that comes my way. I've learned to 'feel' if things are right with the Universe, and not be sucked into another 'belief' about certain things. To me if something has the smack of love, joy, peace, etc......then it can be useful in my life but if not it's out! And I can't find to many things in this org to hang onto based on that criteria!

    Having said that, if we are really at peace about our dicission to leave, and we really don't care what they decided to do in their lives, they should be able to 'feel' that when we are confronted. They (the elders or other JW's) should be able to sense that there is something different about us in a good way, that there is going to be nothing they could say to us to change our minds before one word is even spoken! In fact, they should look at us and actually want what we have, this peace of mind! That is a long shot but that's how it should be. I understand calling these men on their lies and hypocricy if that's where we are in this journey, but IMO it does nothing for the cause of showing just how truly happy and at peace we really are for leaving. But of course, maybe not all of us are there yet and that's ok to, it's part of a journey. I just feel for Hobo Ken in that, although his points were valid, they got NOWHERE with this person. To me it would be more powerful to just smile and say 'brother I wish you the best and if there's anything you ever need from me don't hesitate to ask', or something like that.( But also, there is a way to confront these things from a very powerful knowing inside of us that makes a difference in how we would confront them as well.) We will not win trying to change them, or even having a conversation with them about any of it. One of the things that always bothered me about JW's is that they were miserable most of the time! Why would I want to be them? Let's give them the opposite, make them ask, 'what does she have that I would like to have'. It has to be genuine, which means it has to come from the natural course of your journey, and it will. Just some thoughts on it all........wildflower

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