why should we be afraid of God (Allah)?
Because he controls the oil and he could kick Jehovah, Jesus and the holly spirit ass.
Must see video on Youtube where a JW is clearly defeated on the trinity subject...
by Tuesday 347 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Anti-Christ
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Vinny
Trinity has been done to death already. How many times does it need to be done again? I saw the whole thing on Monday, and thought bible Jim did a very commendable job. I also thought the JW's were legitimate JW's on those youtube videos. After getting SPANKED by Bible Jim, they then went to the "but we are humble" approach, as if it somehow means their supposed humility trumps the issues being debated themselves. What a hoot! Near the end you could also see the main JW was an older black gent with gray hair. He seemed to not be an elder because he said he'd take this info to the elders. In the very beginning Bible Jim mentions that this was a scheduled meeting. So I am not sure why Reniaa thinks it looked staged with all his books out, when right from the beginning he clarifies both sides were prepared for that meeting. Bible Jim also gave out his phone number near the last couple of tapes, so, if Reniaa or Pilchard want to do themselves a favor they can always call Bible-Jim and debate on the phone. Hey, maybe Bible Jim can put Reniaa on speaker phone and we can see how she does. I mean Reniaa, you've been spanked so many times on the JWD now, that one more time on tape shouldn't make a difference, right? So let's talk about trinity then. Somehow Reniaa and Pilchard thinks "trinity" makes all those laughable JW teachings, beliefs, mistakes, arrogant statements, flip flops, current bad ideas all of no account and all giving WT world get a free pass today. Amazing things from JW's like Reniaa and pilchard. You see, many folks have left JW's that do not believe in trinity. Trinity deal is not why people say thanks to JW's but no thanks. The last time I looked JW's were not dying in hospital rooms because of trinity. The last time I looked Families were not being torn apart because of trinity. The last time I looked people who left WT world were not shunned and lost all family because of trinity. The last time I looked people did not come out to sites like this and let people know all about WT world nonsense because of trinity. I personally don't even care about trinity to be honest. But for what it's worth, if the bible is true, I personally believe that Jesus will always be subject to the Father. Or maybe somebody can explain 1 Corinthinians 15:28 for me. Though there are also many so called trinitarians that do believe this as well. However, I also believe the JW's have stripped the deity of Christ far too much from what the scriptures actually say. While I still pray to the Father through the Son, I see no problems when other people also pray to the Son. All things have been handed to the Son, we are told. He is called, "a King", "Mighty God", "Eternal Father", and much more. If bible is true, The Father used The Son to CREATE ALL OF US. Though in the end, after the thousand years, while in Heaven, he hands over the Kingdom back to his Father. This is the main scripture that leads me to believe the Son is always subject to the Father if the bible is from God. I am very open on this subject and really do not care much at all to be honest. I am also still not exactly certain about the Holy Spirit. There is numerous support for the idea that the Holy spirit is a "Personal" Active Force rather than "Impersonal" Active Force. I have seen compelling evidence from BOTH sides to be honest. But in the end, to me, this once again is not a paramount issue. Either way, if the bible is true, I believe the Holy Spirit has helped me in my own personal life. Either way, if the bible is true, Jesus Christ was sent to the earth as a sacrifice for my sins and to approach the Father as well as a perfect example in which to imitate. Either way then, the Father sent the Son, Created life and deserves worship. If an EXACT, SPECIFIC, COMPLETE understanding is still in dispute, I do not believe it will affect my relationship with the Father or the Son one bit. I am indeed grateful for all three of these forces; The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. JW's believe there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians and JW's simply disagree with just what EXACT ROLE each plays. Is the Holy Spirit an "Impersonal" active force, or instead a "Personal" active force? I really do not care which it is to be honest. I do know this though, if the bible is true the Holy Spirit helps me to direct my life. It plays a vital role in my life today. I receive power, I receive comfort, I receive many things that give evidence to me, that my Grand Creator (whoever He is) is with me and is helping me move forward as one that tries to do what is right and good on a daily basis. Nothing anybody could do or say can take this realization away from me. I am no longer a JW and I still feel God and His Power/Holy Spirit is with me right now. As do millions of others today that are not JW's. Is Jesus equal to the Father, or is Jesus subject to the Father? I have my opinion. Could I be wrong? Yes, it's always possible. And like I mentioned, I will continue to examine this issue along with the bible itself. Would it, though, make a difference to me if I learned that without a doubt Jesus IS equal to His Father as many believe? My honest answer is NO, it would not make any difference to me at all. Trinity nonsense is totally overblown, IMO. Either way, if the bible is true, Jesus is the one who sacrificed his life for me. The Father sent him to do that. Christians are forever indebted to BOTH regardless of their exact, specific position in relation with one to the other. MOST people that I know of, who are Christians, that are not JW's do not believe that Jesus is equal to the Father in all things. I was raised as a Methodist, Baptist and Catholic and I never felt that way even then. Same goes for many I know today. There are some that are more opinionated about this issue. Fine, I respect those views too. They do have scriptures that can support their point of view to a fair degree to THEM. It's not a complete slam dunk on either side, in my opinion. Though I tend to believe Jesus is subject to the Father forever. Again, if He is not, it would not change anything to me. I am forever grateful to BOTH. I have always prayed to the Father through the Son. The bottom line, in my opinion, is this: Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or not; Whether the Holy Spirit is Personal or Impersonal; Whether there is a burning Hell or eternal sleep-like non existence; whether there will life in Heaven itself or on a Paradise Earth; whether the 144,000 is literal or figurative and probably another 100 different things I could list here, what REALLY matters here is that people, as professed followers of Christ, live each day of their lives trying to imitate him as best they possibly can. Applying His teachings in their life. The Golden Rule for example. The Sermon on the Mount teachings. Cultivating the Fruitage of the Spirit. Being like the "Good Samaritan". Showing Love to all mankind. Working more on humility. Being less judgmental. More patient, more forgiving, more helpful and loving as well as another 100 other things I could post here. These things are what really matters. Whatever these other things end up being, we can all know one thing for sure, if the bible is true it will be wonderful. Whether life after death is in Heaven or on a Paradise Earth, it will be fine with me and probably anybody. Whether Jesus is equal to the Father or subject to Him, it should not change people's love for either of them. Just focusing on being a True Christian is what worship should be all about. The rest will all be fine, whatever it turns out to be. I'll be sure to take it. If I am ever given the opportunity. I have not dug my heels in on any of this. I cannot even guaranty the bible is true. There are mistakes in it. And I do believe that this Trinity issue should not divide christians the way that it does today. I do not believe that if a christian believes that Jesus IS equal to the Father in all things, yet is still a "Believer", while also applying Christ's teachings in their personal life, helping others to do the same etc, that they are DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION as the JW's teach and believe. If an EX JW sister were to visit with you Reniaa, stay at your home, socialize with your JW friends and family, have a meal at a restaurant with you and even go to your house of worship, the Kingdom Hall; please tell me what happens to either of you once the elders, and other JW's at your local Kingdom Hall come to learn that THIS NICE PERSON ONCE WAS A JW? You know the answer. Even if she does not practice sin at all today, and prays many times every day, and reads the scriptures almost every day as well and try to apply all of Christ's teachings in her very life. She may try to help others to know about Christ, and try to be a practical help to all that she can wherever she is. Now Tell us Reniaa, what happens to all of that "sisterly affection" once they know SHE WAS A JW, but is no longer one? What happens is that nobody would fellowship with her any longer. Nobody would as much as say a hello or raise their hand to even acknowledge her any longer. If you continued to speak with her at the Kingdom Hall, at restaurants or allow her to stay at your home, then YOU, would then be called into the back room with the elders. And if you did not say YES SIR, I will stop all associating with this nice Christian EX Witness altogether, then YOU would become just like her and CUT-OFF completely by all friends and even family that are JW's. This is not hyperbole Reniaa. I am not lying or stretching gumby. This is how it really is. Yet many EX JW's are still Christian today. How do you explain such policies as this to shun at all costs? So then, from MY PERSPECTIVE, knowing the above, what kind of Christian would you be, to this ex JW, in actuality here reniaa? On the other hand she could come visit a Trinitarian believer, bring her husband, talk scriptures, talk about JW's, have a meal and have no strings attached at all. See the difference? Who then is really the true Christian here? She still believes in Christ. She still reads the bible. She still believes in the power of the Holy Spirit. Etc etc... You must cut her off. But a Trinitarian (still a Christian) can fellowship with her right now. So who is more like a brother and sister here? Even *IF* the trinity is not true, for many centuries the King James version was all there was. You read that and can definitely see where the trinity belief is possible then for those many centuries. Even translations TODAY, there are verses like John 1:1 (and many others), you see that teaching is very possible to believe. I fully understand and can support why some believe that Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is personal. The NWT IS BIASED in certain places, in my opinion as well. The fact is, such differences of opinion are minor, in my mind. Certainly not worthy of such a division as what the JW's make it into. After all Both sides "BELIEVE IN CHRIST". How unchristian and presumptuous to say that "JW's are the ONLY ONES, all others are false christians and are soon to be destroyed" regardless of how devoted and spiritual they truly are. You see trinity does not change the fact that WT got end of the world wrong many times. That JW's were wrong on Vaccinations, Organ Transplants, Alternative Service, Rape, Infidelity, the generation thing, 1935, sodom and Gomorra, Beth Sarim, and thousands of other wacky, embarrassing kinds of things. And THIS is the problem that I keep trying to put before JW's today. Like I said, nobody that I know of left the WT Society because of the trinity. NONE. The track record of the WT Society cannot get a free pass here from my point of view. There are MANY CURRENT bad policies as well, right now today. How do you excuse these then? How can they get some free pass? This is why I walked away just three years ago. My wife and two kids are now out as well. We just never knew these things. That's how it is in WT world! Trinity is just completely overblown. And for me is a waste of time. Carry on... Vinny
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Chalam
Hi Vinny,
Some interesting points you have raised.
My own view is that the Trinity is paramount and I will defend it all day long, let me explain.
1. The Father is God.
We are all happy with that, even Muslims.
2. Jesus is God.
Many are not happy with that, not just JWs but Muslims and all other faiths I can think of save born again Christians.
Now, if Jesus is God then we should hang off His every word, pray to Him and follows His example all day long. If not, then he could be important but certainly not as important as the Father. This is where JWs and born again Christians are at total opposite ends of the spectrum. More importantly, if JWs are wrong about who Jesus is, i.e that He is God, not an angel then they will miss the salvation that faith in Him and His blood brings.
3. The Holy Spirit is God.
Neither are JWs happy with that. They are not happy that God speaks to individuals but only through "his organisation". They are not happy with those who exercise His gifts explicitly mentioned in the bible, speaking in tongues, words of knowledge. They say those that do are doing so "by another spirit" (i.e. demonic spirits) and thus blaspheme the Holy Spirit and become guilty of eternal sin that can never be forgiven.
Anyhow, I think the popularity of this thread and the Divinity of Jesus speaks volumes, that they are important topics that we all need to gain an understanding of.
All the best,
Stephen
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Vinny
I'm happy if you have it all figured out Chalam.
Let me ask you a question: If a person is a sincere bible believer and follower of Jesus, that just so happens to believe Jesus is subject to the father based on their own understanding of scriptures (such as 1 Cor 15:28 and many others), do you believe they will be destroyed at armageddon?
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Chalam
Hi Vinny,
I'm happy if you have it all figured out Chalam.
I dunno about that ;)
Let me ask you a question: If a person is a sincere bible believer and follower of Jesus, that just so happens to believe Jesus is subject to the father based on their own understanding of scriptures (such as 1 Cor 15:28 and many others), do you believe they will be destroyed at armageddon?
I am a born again Christian. The WT doctrine of destroying all non JWs at Armageddon is total heresy to me.
Consider the words of Jesus
Matthew 10:28 (New International Version)
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
What does it say here? That after physical death there is the possibility of something much worse.
I have no problem with Jesus having humbled Himself and set aside His position as God to become human and and a humble servant, subject to the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11 (New International Version)
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature [ God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!The important thing is not sincerity in itself because I believe my JW friends are sincere in their belief of a lie.
For example, I could be sincere in a belief that I am the President of the United States. That would not make me the President!
Truth is paramount. Most people are very cautious here because they have found the JW "truth" is clearly full of lies.
All the best,
Stephen
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Vinny
No problems with your own beliefs here. My question was, will those people that worship God, who believe in the bible, who do follow Christ etc ... be destroyed at armageddon (or worse) if they believe that Jesus is subject to the Father. (1 Cor 15:28)
Thanks.
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booby
even though I have been over this stuff many times over a long period of time it seems there is always something pops to mind. Looking at stephens last comment caused me to notice/brought back to mind, that although jw's believe in the holy spirit as God's active force there is more emphasis on the faithful and discreet slave (actually governing body) being used in communicating tham the Holy Spirit.
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Chalam
Hi Vinny,
I believe in the second death Revelation 20 Revelation 21 which is what Jesus is warning of, a conscious eternal torment, not the WT doctrine of "all unbelievers will die at Armageddon and then be conscious of nothing" so I will answer question in relation to the former.
No problems with your own beliefs here. My question was, will those people that worship God, who believe in the bible, who do follow Christ etc ... be destroyed at armageddon (or worse) if they believe that Jesus is subject to the Father. (1 Cor 15:28)
Also, I reiterate, I have no problem believing 1 Cor 15:28 especially in relation to Phil 2. I do not think that this verse is a key one with which we can judge salvation on. Here is a good one IMHO
Romans 10:9 (New International Version)
9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
I believe JWs fail this test on both accounts. Firstly, Jesus is not their Lord in word or actions, "jehovah" is. Their NWT bible is a testament to this belief as they change the Greek word for Lord principally to "Jehovah". Secondly, JWs do not believe Jesus was raised from the dead as the scripture says and by Jesus' very own words, i.e. in a physical body of flesh and bones. The twist the verse which says Jesus was raised from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit to a doctrine that Jesus was only "spirit" (i.e. a ghost) when He appeared, something that Jesus' specifically denied with His own words.
Luke 24:39 (English Standard Version)
39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Also, they "trample the Son of God underfoot" Hebrews 10:29 by calling Him a "spirit creature" and they quench and blaspheme His Holy Spirit. They profane the sacrifice of His body and blood every Easter by saying "no" to both. The list of heresies is long and damming IMHO.
So can a JW who believes the WT doctrines be saved? I believe not but it is up to Jesus, He is to judge us. In His love His will is that all come to repentance and knowledge of Him, and that none perish but take His free gift of life. All the best, Stephen
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Vinny
Thanks Chalam. I can respect your comment that a JW, in your opinion, will be destroyed at armageddon, though you also clarify that Jesus is the judge so you recognize, I assume, that you could be wrong.
But my question was not about a JW. I asked if a bible believing, follower of Jesus who's also a sincere Christian (though one who also believes Jesus is subject to God and not equal to him), would be destroyed when armageddon came?
There is a difference.
I would like to ask you to give me a direct answer if possible. Yes, no, maybe etc.
Thanks again!
Best,
vinny