What would it take for you to conclude that the WBTS is not God's channel?

by Mickey mouse 87 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  The Almighty Homer

  Its your mythology of choice Reniaa, but have you ever thought or considered the values of humanism,

  realizing the mental and physical destruction of individuals involved with cult worship such as the JWS.

  ( Suicides, Death by refusing a blood transfusion, dismantled and destroyed families, numerous psychological problems by its members..... etc. )

  Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appealing to universal human qualities, particularly rationality, without resorting to the supernatural or alleged divine authority from religious texts. [1] [2] It is a component of a variety of more specific philosophical systems, but increasingly is emerging as a standalone sensibility for our own species, planet and lives.

  Humanism can be considered as a process by which truth and morality is sought through human investigation; as such, views on morals can change when new knowledge and information is discovered. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, such humanism rejects transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on faith , the supernatural , or texts of allegedly divine origin. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of the human condition , suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial . [3]
• 

  OUTLAW

  Reniaa..

  I noticed the question assumed I followed wtbs, which I don't! I follow Jehovah then Jesus then the men in charge iuntil Jesus returns, I am part of the flock called Jehovah's witnesses.....Your correct..We do assume you follow the WBT$....If you don`t,your not a Jehovah`s Witness.....You are "Not" part of the flock called Jehovah`s Witness`s..You are A Fraud!!..You are Posing as something you are not!......If your willing to lie about being a Jehovah`s Witness on our board..Your likely lying about a great many things..Like being a woman.....My best guess is,your a man......Someone who has posted here before,under another name..Or ..Many other names

  I hate loaded questions so I gave a comprehensive understanding of what I do want from a religion......This was not a loaded question,it was concise and to the point.....The topic of discussion is not about what you want from a religion..

  If Jws started accepting trinity? no I wouldn't be one because it is one if the reasons I am with them, if they put crosses on there altars? this would also be a deal breaker......Finally a straight answer..

  I choose a religion that doesn't offer me a multi-choice God but one that is in harmony with israelites ,Jews, early christians, the bible and what they believed......Once again,off topic..

  You guys make the mistake that it is other religions that we need to worry about but Jesus made it very clear that the issue would be within the faith not outside it in our times.....The mistake is yours..This thread is not about other religions..Stick to the topic..

  Matthew 7:21-23
  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'.....Off topic!..This scripture has nothing to do with the question asked..

  Saying all roads lead to Jesus and just calling on his name is enough is contrary to bible teaching......Off Topic!

  I appreciate the people on this forum probs will never return to witnesses I guess there is a point when some gets beyond repair. but every side should get a eharing so if in a small way I provide some balance I am thankful......What balance is that?..You lied to us about being a Jehovah`s Witness!..You have no credibility on this board,from this moment on..

  Jehovahs witnesses as a faith could be destroyed tomorrow but I would still be a follower of the one almighty God Jehovah and his beloved son Jesus my king and saviour so trinity-christianity is forever barred to me as a choice.....You have never been a Jehovah`s Witness ..Real Jehovah`s Witness`s now understand that about you..You can`t just hang out with us and claim to be,one of us.. Your conduct and words have proven you don`t give a rats ass about being a Jehovah`s Witness ..Ever!! You have proven "YourSelf" a liar,by your own words..Mr.Reniaa.............................LOL!!...OUTLAW
• 

  Athanasius

  Hi Reniaa,

  As an Anglican you would call me a Trinitarian Christian, nevertheless, I respect your right to reject the Trinity and hold another set of beliefs. However, you must admit that the Watchtower is in a bit of a flux these days in that they have recently changed some major doctrines and made several changes to their organizational structure. With the eventual passing of Ted Jaracz, the Governing Body may make the Witness religion more mainstream. Will they reject Arianism, adopt the Trinity doctrine, and become like the World Wide Church of God? Only time will tell.

  But it is encouraging that your set of beliefs are independent of the Watchtower Governing Body. So whatever they do will not affect your spirituality.

  You might be interested to know that there is a group of Jehovah's Witnesses here in the United States that have published a report exposing the apostasy of the Watchtower Governing Body. I obtained a copy of this report several years ago. My copy is packed away somewhere in storeage so I can't give you their email address. Perhaps someone here has acess to more current information on the "Report" and this special group of Jehovah's Witnesses. You may have more in common with these Jehovah's Witnesses than with those who blindly follow the changing teachings of the Governing Body.
• 

  isaacaustin

  Reniaa said:

  hmmm lets me see on the one hand we have

  Catholics running countries and making leaders bow down to their own leader and they own 'Caesar'

  My reply: idolatry

  erm vatican is classed as a country is that a UN member?

  My reply: Being a UN member is not wroong. It was only hypocritical on the part of the WT since they so vehemently preach against it.

  We have mormons lobbying political hallways putting their own members in political postions to again try and be caesar

  We have other churches also getting heavily involved in politics many having candidates in congress or parliment. Or clerical leaders in house of lords.

  My reply: Show scripturally that political involvement is wrong. JWs themselves are allowed to vote per a 99 WT QFR- at elast they are on paper.

  then we have witnesses appealing to un to help there preaching work and people, so aid etc can be helped and absolutley no wish to take up politics and we have the example of Paul also appealing to Rome.

  My reply: Two differences- the JWs are appealing for the right to preach via a specific method- which is not outlined in the Bible and they are preaching a different gospel than the one Paul preached- a false one.

  .....

  Next we have the accusation of false prophets or anti-christ

  Mark 13:21-23 (New International Version)

  21 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ [a] !' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

  Revelation 19:20
  But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

  the markers of the false prophets is miracles and signs and worshiping the image of the beast.

  My reply: Maybe or maybe not. They can be...but do not have to be the markers. Here is the marker:

  20

  But if a prophet presumes to speak in my name an oracle that I have not commanded him to speak, or speaks in the name of other gods, he shall die.'

  21

  "If you say to yourselves, 'How can we recognize an oracle which the LORD has spoken?',

  22

  know that, even though a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if his oracle is not fulfilled or verified, it is an oracle which the LORD did not speak. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously, and you shall have no fear of him.

  Is armageddon a false prophecy?

  Is babylons destruction a false prophecy?

  Is Jesus coming a false prophecy?

  My reply: No they are stated in the Bible

  dating existing prophecy isn't false prophecy only unwise and counciled against.

  My reply: Dating it and calling it "god's dates" or "the Creator's promise" is false prophecy. Dating it is unwise...putting God's name to it crossses the line.

  I know many christians churches claiming gifts of the spirit and miracles as well as unique prophecies but Jw's believe this scripture.

  1 Corinthians 13:8-10 (New International Version)

  8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

  how much the prophesying in part applies possibly with regards to having to recognise prophecy fulfillment I have no idea it would be wrong to speculate.

  What is the worst accusation of anti-witnesses?

  That they apply bible scripture to strictly not the opposite.

  When I see christendom making an idol out of Jesus, worshiping him but ignoring his words not even preaching anymore, I know what I consider a deal breaker.

  My reply: Jesus is not an idol. Jesus is God, and shown to be worshipped in the Bible. Other churches preach- only the JWs count their hours. My church this past weekend cancelled their services to go out into the community and serve the people- cleaning up the parks, visiting nursing homes, had a free garage sale for the underprivelaged....sharing the Gospel in the process. JWs simply do not do this.

  I think Jw's will need more refinement but I also think any religion will be measured by how much it doesn't become a reflection of public opinion around it.

  My reply: You mean you JWs need 2/3 of the GB ot agree on a change- always forced by outside pressure or failed prophecy?

  Everyone has their own opinion and I have mine but the bible leads to Jws having the most biblical honesty in my opinion and as a religion at this time not afraid to address all the bible issues like Fornication, homosexuality, idolatry, blood the hard and difficult ones we are still under and ones time cannot wipe out but public opinion now approves of.

  My reply: My church has strongly addressed all of the above- except blood. That is one that also proves the WT to be not of God, but responsilbe for whaolesale murder. There is no blood issue except the WT created one.

  Not hypocritically pretending to accept all religions on one hand while praying that they see sense on the other in line with their own beliefs.

  I also do not blame a group for the actions of individuals especially if they are going against the teaching of the religion in their actions.

  lol i'll get off my soap box now.

  Well you asked and thats my answer.

  Reniaa
• 

  isaacaustin

  My reply:

  I noticed the question assumed I followed wtbs, which I don't! I follow Jehovah then Jesus then the men in charge iuntil Jesus returns, I am part of the flock called Jehovah's witnesses.

  My reply: True to a point- you are here. But you do not follow Jehovah or Jesus...you do follow men who have put themself in charge. I grat you that.

  I hate loaded questions so I gave a comprehensive understanding of what I do want from a religion.

  If Jws started accepting trinity? no I wouldn't be one because it is one if the reasons I am with them, if they put crosses on there altars? this would also be a deal breaker.

  I choose a religion that doesn't offer me a multi-choice God but one that is in harmony with israelites ,Jews, early christians, the bible and what they believed.

  My reply: Certainly this would not be the Jehovah of the WT.

  You guys make the mistake that it is other religions that we need to worry about but Jesus made it very clear that the issue would be within the faith not outside it in our times.

  Matthew 7:21-23
  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

  Saying all roads lead to Jesus and just calling on his name is enough is contrary to bible teaching.

  My reply: Just calling on his name will not save one. True faith in him will.

  I appreciate the people on this forum probs will never return to witnesses I guess there is a point when some gets beyond repair. but every side should get a eharing so if in a small way I provide some balance I am thankful.

  Jehovahs witnesses as a faith could be destroyed tomorrow but I would still be a follower of the one almighty God Jehovah and his beloved son Jesus my king and saviour so trinity-christianity is forever barred to me as a choice.

  Reniaa

  My reply: Sorry you will never get to know God.
• 

  gubberningbody

  Isaac, then is it safe to say that you consider JW's organization in the same manner as the org of scribes/pharisees at the temple in Jesus day?...That they are "used" like someone might "use" a stick, but that at any given point in time the group never has "God's favor", but individuals may and that not on the basis of being biblically correct about anything,but only for acting in faith on the faith they have with themselves and God?
• 

  TheOldHippie

  I think there are two questions, that are being mixed up by some.

  First, there is the question what it would take to conclude that WBTS is not God's Channel, but then another question is also asked as if it were the same thing, what it would take for a person not to continue being a JW.

  I am open to the possibility of having to be forced by evidence that WBTS is not God's Channel - but that would not stop me from continuing to be a JW. Being a JW is a relationship between me and God / Jesus, whereas WBTS is a man-made organizational structure. Individual men and women living in such a way that they try as good as they can to imitate Jesus's ways, trying to live as Christians, I see around me, and that they can do independently of any organization. Being forced by evidence to admit that WBTS is not the Channel, would not mean to me that all individuals within the WTBS framework were "evil" or not Christians. It would be a severe blow, but out of the ruins would emerge hundreds of thousands of men and women that were just as "good" Christians as they are today.
• 

  isaacaustin

  Isaac, then is it safe to say that you consider JW's organization in the same manner as the org of scribes/pharisees at the temple in Jesus day?...That they are "used" like someone might "use" a stick, but that at any given point in time the group never has "God's favor", but individuals may and that not on the basis of being biblically correct about anything,but only for acting in faith on the faith they have with themselves and God?

  I consider the JW org in the same manners as the scribes/pharissees only in the sense of their using the same totalitarian approach with oodles and oodles of rules one must follow to get into the kingdom of God. I do not consider them in the same way as the nation of Israel was at one time God's people- although...yes individuals within the org, as well as any org, if they have true faith I beleive will come out. I beleive it takes, divine intervention for one to come out and come to Jesus.
• 

  Yizuman

  isaacaustin writes: "My reply: Sorry you will never get to know God."

  I got the same feeling too. She (or he) is playing head games with the people here.

  Not only do I believe in the Trinity doctrine (and feels sorry for those that just don't get it), I also believe in the Rapture.

  I can see Reniaa's face when 50 something million people disappears from the face of the earth and see their clothes lying on whatever they last stood, sat or laid on.

  Playing head games and getting left behind in the Rapture is not gonna be a fun thing to have.

  I can actually hear inside my head, just one word, "ACK!"

  Yiz
• 

  Mickey mouse

  I think there are two questions, that are being mixed up by some.

  First, there is the question what it would take to conclude that WBTS is not God's Channel, but then another question is also asked as if it were the same thing, what it would take for a person not to continue being a JW.

  For me the two go hand in hand. It would be OK if it was Unitarian Universalism we were discussing but the WBTS does not allow for half measures. If you don't at a minimum give lip service to the idea of it being "god's channel", you will be ejected fairly rapidly.

  You have no relationship with God without the organization, as per WBTS beliefs. You only benefit by Christ's ransom sacrifice by associating with the faithful remnant who, according to WBTS dogma, can only be found in said manmade organization.

  In my opinion if the WBTS folded tomorrow, those within it's walls would be infinitely better Christians, not just as "good" as today. Jws are certainly not "evil", such an assertion if foolish.

  I am open to the possibility of having to be forced by evidence that WBTS is not God's Channel - but that would not stop me from continuing to be a JW. Being a JW is a relationship between me and God / Jesus, whereas WBTS is a man-made organizational structure. Individual men and women living in such a way that they try as good as they can to imitate Jesus's ways, trying to live as Christians, I see around me, and that they can do independently of any organization. Being forced by evidence to admit that WBTS is not the Channel, would not mean to me that all individuals within the WTBS framework were "evil" or not Christians. It would be a severe blow, but out of the ruins would emerge hundreds of thousands of men and women that were just as "good" Christians as they are today.