Name Things JWs Believe That Are Not Actually Biblically Provable

by minimus 231 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Yizuman

  There was an article from Time magazine back in the 1980s that showed a tomb being discovered and excavated to have a body in the tomb. What's interesting in the find was that there was a cross left inside the tomb with the hands still attached to the crossbeam and feet at the bottom of the cross.

  Apparently, the type of wood had some type of sap substance that caused the nails to be glued into the wood which made it almost impossible to pull it out. There's damage around the nail areas of the cross as if someone or some persons tried to remove the nails from it. So obviously they could not remove them, so they cut his hands and feet off so the body can be removed from the cross and wrapped in the same fashion as Jesus was. Plus they found coins in his eyesocket which showed that upon burial, some Jews had some superstition belief if you put the coins in their eyes, the original host that once occupied the body can use the coins to buy his way through Heaven's gate. Weird.

  Anyway, what's also interesting is the position of the cross, it's was not set in a "t" formation, it was set at a "T" formation. And the leg settings was the knees was pressed against the chest and hit feet being nailed into that leg position. His arms was stretched tight across the crossbeam.

  Apparently the reason Jesus' cross is different was because they had to lower the crossbeam to be able to accommodate the sign that was placed above Jesus' head which reads in 3 languages "The King of the Jews". As for Jesus' legs & arms, he may have been positioned in the same way, except for the crossbeam position.

  Oh, the nails was driven to the body they found was through the wrist area, if you feel the hollow area of the wrist, that's where they found it to be and the feet, driven between the ankle and foot, a hollow area there, a socket if you will, driven there.

  Now I know it was from a time magazine article, I've tried to find it in their archives, but I've had no luck with that. If someone is familiar with the article and know where to find a copy, please let me know and the rest of us too.

  Thanks

  Yiz
• 

  reniaa

  OH my word chalam

  Cross is a third century english word derived from the latin word cruz which originally also meant stake. Witnesses have only made an issue out of this because Christianity has adopted the cross as an Idol.

  Exodus 20:4
  "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

  Leviticus 26:1
  " 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

  I have no intention of debating this again with leolaia but the original word that was used had absolutely no shape signified beyond that it was a general stake shape (having a crosspiece was not part of identifying the word) and people were killed on it there were so many ways people could die this way so it was just a generic term and stake being the easist word for it. It was only in later century that a crosspiece got identified with the word. The only clue to Jesus death instrument shape is Jesus's own predictive words of his death.

  John 3:14
  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

  Numbers 21:9
  So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

  So here Jesus is saying he will die and be lifted up like the snake on a pole that moses did and as you see moses lifted the snake up on a Pole which implies Jesus also died on a single stake (which was a method used by the romans at that time called cruz simplex/ simple stake)

  You know I always find this argument ironic How many times do christians says Jehovah/YHWH isn't in greek scriptures (despite being 7000 times in hebrew scriptures) so we shouldn't use it, yet the gospel writers made absolutely no indication of the shape is of what Jesus died on just a very basic word that gave no indication beyond that he died on it and from a 3rd assumption that it was a crosspiece one we have the biggest idol in our times born and so it's okay for Christendom to use a shape that is not mentioned in the bible in their worship to God.

  You say this shape means nothing to you but would you take it off your altars and stop wearing it around your necks?

  by keeping the words for Jesus's death instrument as basic and generic we make nothing of it so the shape does not become more important than Jesus dying on it for our sakes.

  Good job he wasn't shot by a gun then, would you all wear a gun around your necks and on your altars?

  Reniaa
• 

  isaacaustin

  Renia...just a few comments on your above drivel. Christians do not worship the cross...thus it is not an idol.

  Also, you said:

  Good job he wasn't shot by a gun then, would you all wear a gun around your necks and on your altars?

  Reniaa

  My reply: Jesus was not shot and killed. he came for the sole purpose to give his life for us. A cross as a reminder is nothing objectionable. It is to you because the WT has told you so.
• 

  isaacaustin

  reniaa says:

  John 3:14
  Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,

  Numbers 21:9
  So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

  So here Jesus is saying he will die and be lifted up like the snake on a pole that moses did and as you see moses lifted the snake up on a Pole which implies Jesus also died on a single stake (which was a method used by the romans at that time called cruz simplex/ simple stake)

  My reply:
  Wow. Such a short term memory Rneiaa? Typical of JWs and wannabes. It was pointed out to you that there is a big difference between Jesus and a snake. A snake has no arms while Jesus did. The lifting up is the only parallel here...not the object.
• 

  reniaa

  Hi yizuman

  Do you know that T-shaped crosses could not be lowered to put a big sign on top?

  because the crosspiece had a hole made in it to slot neatly over the top of the simlarily carved top of the stake made smaller because they were both of similar width. They couldn't raise of lower it for the benefit of later people wanting to worship the cross. The sign above Jesus's head being indicative of a cruz simplez/stake being used as the easiest solution to the problem of the sign.

  The latin cross shape people worship in churches today was a much later more sophisticated version that was not used at the time of Jesus's death. when all the torture stakes were still crude and basic.

  Reniaa
• 

  reniaa

  hi isaac

  I am making no paralell with the snake only the PUT UP ON A POLE bit as jesus was also LIFTED UP like.

  Jesus having arms is silly reason to say he couldn't die on a stake since cruz simplex/simple stake was a recognised method to kill humans on by romans at that time.

  Reniaa
• 

  isaacaustin

  lifted up is the only parallel...this comparison does not disprove cross....the long and short of it is that linguistically it can not be proven that he did or did not die on a cross...Biblically as well we can not dogmatically say...although the evidence elans toward him dying on one...this is on other threads to so you can go reivew it yourself....

  Yousay that Jesus having arms is silly reason to say he couldn't die on a stake since cruz simplex/simple stake was a recognised method to kill humans on by romans at that time. By the same token your saying that Jesus being lifted up just as the snake was means he could not have died on a cross is just as silly and baseless. Yes, the crux simplex meant stake or pole in its simplest form...it also meant an array of execution devices, including a cross. Shallow reasoning there by you.
• 

  PSacramento

  I few things:

  There was no need for the writers of the NT to make note of the shpe of the cross for THEIR audience knew quite well what it was.

  The Romans IMPALED people on stakes, they (typically) nailed people to cross of various shapes.

  Jesus was not impaled, he was nailed.

  The oldest recored image of a crucifiction shows a "T" shape.

  As for early christians view of the corss, Paul boasted about hence he had NO shame or issues with it.
• 

  reniaa

  hi isaac

  not really because the exact words are PUT UP ON A POLE no snake involved at all the lifting up involves a pole which is just a stake shape in itself, cruz simplex was the word for just a simple stake method of dying without a cross piece for that particular method in later centuries.

  Like I said shape was not part of the word at that time except in the basic involvement of a stake and the gospel writers would have known this!

  They would know they were saying building without indicating what type of building.

  So if they wanted us to make an issue about the shape they would have told us in more detail on the specific shape for the greater convenience of later people wanting to carve that shape out of wood or make it from precious metals and put it on altars or high places and wear it around that necks, carrying it with them.

  hi sacremento

  Cruz simplex was a single stake method used at that time by romans and did involve nailing the person to it. No crosspiece needed at all and a convenient extra piece over the head for putting a board on.

  Reniaa
• 

  isaacaustin

  Reniaa said:

  hi isaac

  not really because the exact words are PUT UP ON A POLE no snake involved at all the lifting up involves a pole which is just a stake shape in itself, cruz simplex was the word for just a simple stake method of dying without a cross piece for that particular method in later centuries.

  My reply:

  Reniaa...John 3 simply said that the Son of Man would be lifted up, just as the serpent was lifted up. You were trying to use this to say that the snake was not lifted on a cross, so neither was Jesus. I pointed out that this verse is accentuating that Jesus will be lifted up and looked to- just as the serpent. You claim is invalid- a serpent has no arms...Jesus did. And you are wrong, crux simplex was simple stake as well as a variety of execution tools- including a cross. This method was, as has been rehashed in other posts thru credible sources, in existence at that time. The WT is dishonest in this regard.

  Like I said shape was not part of the word at that time except in the basic involvement of a stake and the gospel writers would have known this!

  They would know they were saying building without indicating what type of building.

  So if they wanted us to make an issue about the shape they would have told us in more detail on the specific shape for the greater convenience of later people wanting to carve that shape out of wood or make it from precious metals and put it on altars or high places and wear it around that necks, carrying it with them.

  My reply: There is nothing objectionable in scripture of sometihng as a reminder of what Jesus did for us, so long as it is not worshipped...which a cross is not. Absence of description does not make wrong.

  hi sacremento

  Cruz simplex was a single stake method used at that time by romans and did involve nailing the person to it. No crosspiece needed at all and a convenient extra piece over the head for putting a board on.

  Reniaa

  My reply: And it was also a cross, as well as other tools for executions. No crosspiece needed, but not precluded either.