The relationship between the Father and Son does not need to be inferred or figured out thru analysis of language. (If any bible writer heard the phrase "ontological equality with funtional subordination" - they would pass out) The relationship is Father and Son. The Father gives life and power and position to the Son. The Son should be worshipped, prayed to, obeyed - Because the Father said so, not because his inherited nature demand it. Don't get me wrong Jesus is the same nature as God. "The son of a duck is a duck" but they are not the same duck. Trinitarians use scripture after scripture to show the Father gives to the Son his name, authority, etc.. Why add to this some Platonic view of there nature - the scriptures explain it clearly Without diminishing Jesus to an Angel like the WTS.
Jesus.....God or God's son?
by digderidoo 280 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Spike Tassel
1) Where does it say that the Son should be worshipped and prayed to? I suggest that it ought NOT, based on the original languages.
2) What is the meaning of John 10:33, in the context of the verse which follows, which quotes from Psalm 82? This should help to know what the Bible refers to in using the term "god". I suggest that it refers to any representative of "God", as Moses was before Pharaoh.
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possible-san
Why do you question others in spite of your not answering to others' question insincerely?
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Chalam
Hello Spike,
1) Where does it say that the Son should be worshipped and prayed to? I suggest that it ought NOT, based on the original languages.
With the greatest respect this statement is wrong, check for yourself. Here is the original Greek for worship worship
Click on it and take a look! Have a look at the verses listed which use this word proskuneo.
Now compare with the NWT. You will see that only in the NWT they change every "worship" to "obeisance" for Jesus only!
The greek word is the same so why the change? The answer is they don't want you worshipping Jesus as the greek bible says. It is now contrary to their doctrine and teaching (which was the opposite earlier last century when JWs did worship Jesus).
2) What is the meaning of John 10:33, in the context of the verse which follows, which quotes from Psalm 82? This should help to know what the Bible refers to in using the term "god". I suggest that it refers to any representative of "God", as Moses was before Pharaoh.
John 10:33 (New International Version)
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
It looks straightforward to me. I looked at Psalm 82. I see no link but then I believe Jesus is God, not "a god".
Anyhow, see how you get on with your proskuneo study :)
All the best,
Stephen
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reniaa
Jehovah's witnesses do not diminish Jesus to an angel the bible does, he is called the Angel of the covenent. Angel only means divine messenger, in the hebrew scriptures an ANGEL of god spoke in the first person on behalf of God.
Why do we only have these discussions about Jesus, why don't we have arguments about worshiping the holy ghost, surely you guys should be bowing and worshiping to the holy ghost too?
I stand by what I said on other christian faiths not using Jehovah or yahweh even because of Deut 6:4
Deuteronomy 6:4 (New International Version)
4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God, is one Jehovah.
this unaquivably makes Jehovah the ONE so all 3 would have to be Jehovah which some will admit too but then why don't they use his name? think about this...
According to them Jehovah's witness are blessing Jesus as well because we are calling on the name Jehovah which accompasses all three.
Then think about how personal a name is and when you start calling the Godhead by a name Jehovah ...
Psalm 33:18
But the eyes of Jehovah are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love,how can you then divide HIM into three.
Reniaa
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androb31
Reniaa,
Just a thought. You say you have children, right? How often do your children call you by name? What's more endearing, for them to refer to you as mom or mommy or by your name? Wouldn't it signify some sort of disrespect for you if they insisted on always referring to you by name? Are we not God's children when we become Christian? I seem to remember Jesus telling us to refer to God as our Father....
Notice: Matt: 6:9 Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name
hal·lowed
ADJECTIVE:- Sanctified; consecrated:
- Highly venerated; sacrosanct:
Sounds to me like that would mean set apart, not for common use
You place so much attention on the fact that you use God's name (or a variation of it at least). You think JW's are the only ones who know or use it. But contrary to what you've been told to believe that's simply not true. The issue here is the fact that JW's use the name with such irreverent frequency that they've reduced it to a common household name or word or magic charm. Do a little bit of research and you'll see the JW org is known the world over as a false prophet and a joke not only in the Christian community but also secularly. No one outside of JW'ism really even include JW's in the Christian category. Christians are witnesses of Jesus. Seems to me like the JW's use of God's name has been more of a reproach on God than anything. Just a thought.
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Spike Tassel
Not "just" a thought. It reads to me like a mean-spirited thought, if I do say so myself.
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androb31
No meanness intended. It is a "factual" thought nonetheless. I really don't see that it can be refuted.
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Spike Tassel
One cannot be a true witness of Jesus without being witnesses of Jehovah also. After all, the name "Jesus" derives from a phrase that means "Jehovah provides salvation". Besides, all the LORDs in such bible versions (of translations), such as the KJV and the NIV, substitute for Jehovah (the English-standard equivalent for the Hebrew which is transliterated as YHWH in English letters.
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androb31
Spike,
No offense but I was a JW for 32 years and I've used the same canned response you're using on a number of occasions. Can you come up with something original that you came up with? Everything you've said on this forum I've said before. Another name attributed to Jesus is Emmanuel, which means "God with us". Who's with us? Being a witness of Jesus in itself makes one a witness of the Father as it was the Father who instituted this arrangement. If this arrangement detracted from the Father, He would not have allowed it.
