by Spike Tassel 163 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Well the name is attributed to both the Father and Jesus.
It doesn't take Einstein to work out that therefore Jesus is God and Jesus and the Father are one.
Also, the name itself tells us they are both eternal i.e. without beginning or end.
All the best,
Stephen
I'll ask this one more time...
Spike,
Is there a verse in the Christian Scriptures where Jesus utters the name of God in a prayer?
The only thing that's clear in this entire argument is that the GB of JW's added to the scriptures when they "translated" their NWT. You can attempt to convulute the issue all you want, yet Jesus gave clear warnings about adding to the scriptures.
In this manner the GB places themselves above Jesus. If God wanted the tetragrammaton placed in the Greek writings that constitute the NT, then I'm sure it would be so. He didn't need to wait for 12 wrinkled old men to do it for him!
As to the "restoration" of the Divine Name citing recent Hebrew translations. (Recent as being in the last millennium, not from the first millennium.) See this tract which shows the Watchtower Society ignored some of the usage of the Tetragrammaton by these versions:
The way I see it, Alpha and Omega is clearly a title, not a name. This title is simply the first and last letter of the modern Greek alphabet. I suggest that a completeness of some sort is suggested, but what sort is not clear simply from its formuation.
It is important to know the meaning of the "clear" warnings any give about adding to the scriptures. Those who are duly commissioned must account accordingly, whoever it may be.
The actual inspired Scriptures are one thing. What has been done with each text since is something else. An accountability will have to be given, if it has not already been done.
I said to reniaa like this.
And Spike Tassel quoted these words of mine.
"You are not arguing with the Trinitarians who value the divine name.
Jehovah's Witnesses only imitated the Christians who value the divine name."
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/177937/12/Jesus-God-or-Gods-son
But reniaa was "arrogant" and Spike Tassel was "insincere."
Well, much Christian (Protestant churches) who values the divine name is in Japan.
They never say "Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah."
And they value "Jesus Christ's prayer" in John 17:6.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/joh/chapter_017.htm#bk6
But, of course, they are Trinitarians.
Well, I am not a Trinitarian and do not use the divine name called Yehweh/Jehovah, either.
So, I did not express my own belief now.
who gives a f#*k?
If god didn't lift a finger to ensure his name was kept in his own holy book.. or even ensure a single authoritative pronounciation guide was preserved.. then why should anyone else worry about it? It's clearly not important to god.
- Lime
If we are talking about assumptions...
Are the hebrew scriptures part of the Bible?
Does Gods name YHWH appear nearly 7000 times in the hebrew scriptures? all condone by God to be written and used, and in the case of psalms sung?
Is there any scripture in the new testament fodbidding us to use Gods name?
Does Jesus directly quote scriptures that he only knew at the time to quote Gods name? (bear in mind Jesus didn't write the gospels and so when quoted he would meant the original hebrew scriptures)
Lets be clear here Jws are adding nothing to the bible that isn't already there by adding Jehovah to the greek scriptures lol if we are condemned for that then Christendom is equally condemned for putting Lord in place of YHWH in the hebrew scriptures. Both are the bible.
Here's the biggy do you think God only acknowledges the greek scriptures as the bible now?
You see there is a hidden assumption in all this debate that YHWH in hebrew scriptures has been replaced and there is absolutely no scripture to back this assumption up other than reading it into the sccripture yet halleuyah is still used in the greek 4 times and that basically means praise Jehovah.
Isaac you say you are not a madalism trinitarian but saying Jesus reaplaces Jehovah is a modalistic viewpoint.
Reniaa
Are the hebrew scriptures part of the Bible?
They are a part of most modern collection of scriptures, yes.
Does Gods name YHWH appear nearly 7000 times in the hebrew scriptures? all condone by God to be written and used, and in the case of psalms sung?
The constantans suggesting the divine name appear without vowels. To assume there is a supreme being and that the use of his name is 'condoned' by that is an assumption in itself.
Is there any scripture in the new testament fodbidding us to use Gods name?
I believe the old testament does make an issue about using the lord's name in vain. Better err on the side of caution, no? If there is a point to throw out the window, the old testament doesn't say anything against sex with children.. even in those top-ten commandments, the use of the divine name made the list, while "don't hurt innocent children" wasn't much of a concern. God apparently does have standards - and #2 on God's top ten list of sins is..... don't use my name in a way I don't like." Yes. The exact syntax in which you use the divine name is of greater importance than all of 1 other thing. (Fortunately, in the greek scriptures, Jesus covered for that crap, and set a new second commandment - loving your neighbor.)
Does Jesus directly quote scriptures that he only knew at the time to quote Gods name? (bear in mind Jesus didn't write the gospels and so when quoted he would meant the original hebrew scriptures)
Jesus quotes such scriptures, but there is no evidence he used the name. All written and anecdotal evidence (if he had spoken the name, he would have been arrested) support the position that he did NOT in fact use the name in public.
Lets be clear here Jws are adding nothing to the bible that isn't already there by adding Jehovah to the greek scriptures lol if we are condemned for that then Christendom is equally condemned for putting Lord in place of YHWH in the hebrew scriptures. Both are the bible.
Well, if ABSOLUTE NONE of the existing copies of ancient text support your theory, and you're just making it up as you believe... then you are indeed changing the text. What you believe does not change fact. The fact is, there are thousands upon thousands of ancient text, none of which support your claims. In any court of law, you would be found guilty of tampering with the evidence. So, yes you did add. You assumed what should be there, and did not truthfully present what was factually found there.
Here's the biggy do you think God only acknowledges the greek scriptures as the bible now?
I do not believe there is a god, or that he 'inspired' any of this old dribble. But from what I have learned of the bible (having it shoved down my throat, as it were), the new covenant replaces the old. When you replace the tires on your car, do you keep your old tires in you garage to look back upon and reflect? Probably not. Out with the old, in with the new. Sheesh. I don't even believe the bible, but I know when to quit looking back at ideas long past and longing for them.
You see there is a hidden assumption in all this debate that YHWH in hebrew scriptures has been replaced and there is absolutely no scripture to back this assumption up other than reading it into the sccripture yet halleuyah is still used in the greek 4 times and that basically means praise Jehovah.
I'll leave that for the religiously inclinded people to debate. (It's hallelujah, btw.) It is all nonsense anyway. A child can see all the flaws and crap in this until their parent spanks them for being 'blasphemous'. Pfft. FRODO BAGGINS SAVES! (At least we KNOW how his name is pronounced.)
- Lime
