cattails,
the issue is that "Jehovah" is NOT the english translation of YHWH, that is the point.
Does the name Jehovah actually exist in the original Hebrew language?
by Yizuman 105 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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cattails
PS, how is it not a translation? Who says it isn't a translation?
Do people who say Jehovah mean the same entity as Ancient
Hebrews who wrote the tetragram? I think certainly think so.
Do people who say Jesus today mean the same person as those
who pronounced the name in Greek, or Hebrew, or Aramaic or
even Latin in Jesus own day? I think certainly think so.
The pronunciation issue is a very misunderstood point and this
thread is being discussed by people who persist in making stupid
points. I'm really getting fed up with the nonsense.
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PSacramento
Cattails,
Did you read the first post ?
Have you read the Watchtowers "The divine name that will endure"?
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CrimsonBleu
Jesus called 'Him' Father. He referred to his Father as God. Did Jesus call 'Him' Jehovah?
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PSacramento
CrimsonBleu,
Jesus was quite adamant about using the term "Father", he told us to pray using it, HE praye dusing it and sometime "Abba", he used it hwile dying o n the cross.
It showed his very special relationship wiht God and showed that Jesus wanted US to have the same, very sepcial and personal relationship with God.
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CrimsonBleu
Yes, so I thought....
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undercover
The pronunciation issue is a very misunderstood point and this thread is being discussed by people who persist in making stupid points. I'm really getting fed up with the nonsense.
The pronunciation issue is misunderstood...by you.
From the Watchtower Society's own publication, The Divine Name That Will Endure Forever:
How Is God's Name Pronounced?
The truth is, nobody knows for sure how the name of God was originally pronounced. Why not? Well, the first language used in writing the Bible was Hebrew, and when the Hebrew language was written down, the writers wrote only consonants—not vowels. Hence, when the inspired writers wrote God's name, they naturally did the same thing and wrote only the consonants.
While ancient Hebrew was an everyday spoken language, this presented no problem. The pronunciation of the Name was familiar to the Israelites and when they saw it in writing they supplied the vowels without thinking (just as, for an English reader, the abbreviation "Ltd." represents "Limited" and "bldg." represents "building").
Two things happened to change this situation. First, a superstitious idea arose among the Jews that it was wrong to say the divine name out loud; so when they came to it in their Bible reading they uttered the Hebrew word 'Adho·nai' ("Sovereign Lord"). Further, as time went by, the ancient Hebrew language itself ceased to be spoken in everyday conversation, and in this way the original Hebrew pronunciation of God's name was eventually forgotten.
In order to ensure that the pronunciation of the Hebrew language as a whole would not be lost, Jewish scholars of the second half of the first millennium C.E. invented a system of points to represent the missing vowels, and they placed these around the consonants in the Hebrew Bible. Thus, both vowels and consonants were written down, and the pronunciation as it was at that time was preserved.
When it came to God's name, instead of putting the proper vowel signs around it, in most cases they put other vowel signs to remind the reader that he should say 'Adho·nai'. From this came the spelling Iehouah, and, eventually, Jehovah became the accepted pronunciation of the divine name in English. This retains the essential elements of God's name from the Hebrew original.
Even as the Society tries to claim that Jehovah is the accepted pronunciation it admits it's wrong and is a mistranslation. Though the Society clouds the issue, the question remains, is Jehovah the correct translation or not? The answer is, it is not.
The stupidity lies with one who sees the evidence of the mistranslation, yet continues to defend it as correct, or divine. Will you remain stupid now?
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cattails
Look Undie, I'm not the one misunderstanding anything about it here.
When you translate a name you use whichever pronunciation is common in that language.
If you translate Peter into Spanish then you get Pedro. Which one is the correct pronunciation?
They are both correct, you *&%$!
The traditional name in English for the Hebrew tetragram is Jehovah. As long as the four
consonants are represented JHVH/YHWH then the name is translated, if you like the
more scholastic Yahweh or the more traditional Jehovah is entirely up to you.
Ancient Hebrew didn't use vowel markers only later were the vowel points added
and sometimes the vowel points match (a bit) with Adonay or with Elohim, but a lot
of the time they match with Shema, so the Adonay superstition is just some guy's
explanation that suited his fancy.
If you want to keep arguing about it go ahead. But I suggest you read up from more
than the idiotic sources you're using now.
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undercover
cattails...See Yizuman's first post...he provided references that show that "Jehovah" is the incorrect translation. I quoted from a WT publication, which I admit most are idiotic, but I do it to show you that even the publishing corporation that advertises God's name as "Jehovah" admits that it was incorrectly translated.
This is not the same as translating Peter into Pedro...it's more like translating Peter into Pator or Putir, both containing the original consonants but with the wrong vowels (purposely avoiding language change to make the point).
The fact that people have come to accept "Jehovah" as a traditional pronunciation (of which the WT Society is of that group) does not mean that it is the correct pronunciation or translation.
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PSacramento
Undercover is quote correct and the WT admits this in their own writings.
I went to see the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibition and went with a few friends, a couple were jewish, one works for the Jewish research center in ancient hebew research and he brouth his uncle who isa rabbinic scholar ( I had met him before at a Jewish wedding) and we got to discuss YHWH since it appears in the DSS, we got into the correct name and pronunciation and he said, to which I agreed, the best we can do is specualte on how it was pronounced and written, we can make an educated Guess and if thatis GOOD enough for some, great, for him THE NAME deserves more respect than mere assumption and guesses ( He uses Lord).
We spoke of Jehovah and Yahweh and he said ( I am parphrasing) while Yahweh MAY be closest to correct, Jehovah is at best a "popular rending" with no basis in hebrew or aramaic language,perhaps if we KNEW the correct spelling we can go from there, we don't and one hopes that the future will yield some proof...