Hypothetically, If Someone Created a Fake Congregation to Trick Another...

by OnTheWayOut 113 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  OnTheWayOut

  Let's just stay hypothetical. If someone wanted to create a fake congregation in 7-Miles-From-Nowhere, North Dakota (7-M-F-N, N.D. Congregation) in order to trick the elders at another congregation, what could they get away with?

  Just assume that they use a P.O. box number or the address of a vacant building, they have temporary phone numbers for a group of elders and make themselves untraceable. They could just disappear after their objective were achieved.

  I have heard of some saying they could get their publisher's card forwarded there, then the baptized publisher would disappear off the congregation radar and nobody would be able to ever DA or DF them. As far as WTS is concerned, an individual is not a name, he's just one out of seventy people in a congregation. (Very Borg-like, his name could even be "Seven-of-Seventy Nine.")

  Could they actually get a judicial committee to agree to a reinstatement of some publisher that allegedly moved there? I mean, what is the procedure for this? Would the "old congregation" have to mail any forms to Bethel? Or if the JC was tricked into this, would all the records of this DF'ed publisher be sent to the 7-M-F-N, N.D. Congregation just like the publisher who "moved there" in the paragraph above? Would the old congregation have to have some clearance from Bethel to make an announcement that the person is reinstated? Would the form the old congregation sent to Bethel (stating the person was DF'ed) remain on file, meaning the person is technically DF'ed until a real actual congregation mails some new form to them?

  Former secretaries or anyone who may know something, please answer. The forum wants to know how this might work or not.
  Also, I imagine that many want to comment on how, even after being successful in this, someone can trip up such an attempt afterward.
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  sir82

  Yeah it could work.

  The "old congregation" does have to send paperwork (S-77 form) to Bethel informing them of the reinstatement, but the form does not have any place to indicate the name or location of the "new congregation". The "old congregation" would also send publisher cards (if they held them) directly to the "new congregation's" address.

  As mentioned in the now-disappeared thread, if this technique becomes common and is discovered by the Society, or even if they happen to read this board and act on what they see, they can easily close this loophole. They could either:

  (1) require all reinstatement requests to be in writing and funnelled thru them, rather than directly between congregations, or

  (2) they could require some sort of input from the "new congregation" on the S-77 mailed in for reinstatement, with instructions that it is not to be announced until the Society verifies all info.
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  OnTheWayOut

  So more work could be created for the ever-shrinking forces at HQ. That work would add more culpability, IMO.
  I see that being unlikely. Perhaps the HQ could just give a list of approved congregation numbers and addresses.
  Even there, 7-M-F-N, N.D. Congregation could use a real congregation number and address, saying that their fake numbers are just contact information for the elders.

  I was never the secretary, but as a chairman on a JC, I fully trusted that the guys on the phone were elders from another congregation in another part of the country. I assumed all was on the up and up. I mean, we were all "brothers."
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  besty

  If for legal reasons already discussed elsewhere, the WTS are trying to put some distance between themselves and the local congs. and the WTS are also trying to cut staff at Bethels, then more bureacracy of this type is unlikely.

  I would say it's a good idea to take the concept of FakeReinstate 1.0 and work with the more knowledgeable posters on this board to come up with a refined enhanced version - FakeReinstate 2.0.

  Then create a lowkey website with the instructions that would be available for whoever wants to give it a shot
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  sir82

  If they do ever catch on to this, I'm sure it will give them a massive headache.

  On the one hand, the goons in the Service Department would just drool over the opportunity to be even more controlling and vindictive than they already are.

  On the other hand, as noted, they are working furiously to separate themselves from actions taken locally by the congregations.

  I really don't know how they proceed - which "hand" would win?
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  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  Hypothetically, anything could work if you're dealing with a dimwitted group of elders. It would be easier to transfer cards to nowhere, which takes just a letter to request. It would be more complicated to fake reinstate. Even if you have correct procedures covered, all it would take is an elder to call the branch to get the latest KH, CotBoE, and Sec info, and it all fails.
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  OnTheWayOut

  Thanks Billy, but isn't that redundant? Saying "dimwitted" to describe "group of elders" ?
  
  It could be checked on, but trust trust trust the brothers. Calling Bethel and bothering them with trivial matters and keeping someone away from dealing with saving the world- that's just a waste and a shame. I've never heard of 7-M-F-N, North Dakota, but I am just a window washer that never travels beyond DC locations. Jehovah's spirit will watch over these matters.
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  daniel-p

  I think the Society's lawyers would think twice before adding some kind of loop on their end. With them being responsible for approving the reappointement of pedophile MS and Elders, I don't think they'd be eager to take on responsibility for reappointing EVERY one of the thousands of DFd ones, or otherwise adding some level of review that could be traced to HQ.

  What it comes down to is this: Bethel is more concerned about legal liability than infiltration of apostates. Basically, it has them by the BALLS.
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  No Apologies

  Hey I used to live in ND, I know plenty of small towns that could be the site of this new congregation. Except even a cursory glance at a map would probably be enough to kill the charade (Finley, population... 27!?!)

  Better would be to pose as say, a suburb congregation. There's a dozen of them, who knows what the name of all of them are. And they don't have their own Hall, they share with some other (real) congregation. "Yes Im from the Spruce Park Congregation here in Minneapolis, we share a hall with Blaine..."

  No Apologies
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  Vinny

  Snakes gave an intelligent reply from experience on the now deleted thread (good idea to delete that one) that would pertain to this one, IMO. I'll just copy and paste what he wrote (I've deleted all names used) :

  My friend, I have mixed feelings on this one. I guess after 6 pages of replies and 1500 views, (and 1 hijack by the usual Ms R...sheesh).... I am sure that what I have to say is a duplicate of something someone has already said...here goes anyway...

  As a former MTS grad, elder and congo secretary and member of (sadly) many JCs, the first thing I would have done upon receiving a letter such as you describe having been sent to the unsuspecting JC, would be to contact Patterson and make a quick call to the particular Desk in Service Department that handles that particular state(s) to confirm the address and contact information of the new congo making the reinstatement request. Immediately the scam would have been up and your friend would have been hard put to answer the subsequent questions that would have certainly been asked. I would also have mailed/faxed a copy of your letter to Service to verify the providence of the letter. Especially from an out of state congregation from a PO box (though I myself used a PO Box as secretary, my address was on file with the Society).

  Understand, I was a paranoid sort that didn't trust too many people..so maybe I was an exception not the rule on thorough vetting of requests...so you all may get away with it...

  so I pretty much knew how to come off convincing and authoritative enough to make this other JC chairman realize he was dealing with " the real deal " here.

  With all due respect my friend, this comes off as a bit cocky....and very unlike the usual XXXX I have spoken with in the past.

  As the chairman of the original JC, I would not have spoken to you one-on-one over the telephone ...this goes against all procedure I ever learned at MTS (and any elder worth his salt would know this too...oh wait..there aren't many elders worth anything, I digress). I would have had, at the very least, a second member of our original JC on the line with me...preferable all 3 of us from the original JC on a conference call .....and would have insisted that the PO or other member of your Service Committee were on the line with you.....(and I would have called you all back at the phone number given to me by the Society...not just accepted your call at face value) ......presuming of course that I had been able to verify your curriculum vitae with the Society....which of course...you would have failed....making the unlikely phone call moot.

  and:

  circuits... gotta at minimum change circuits...... Any CO following training will review recent JCs to make sure that procedure was followed and verify with Bethel anything funky like a letter requesting the original JC reinstate.... that kind of thing is more than a blip on a CO's checklist....and if the guy only changes congos within a circuit, the chances of getting caught are pretty high.

  I wasn't DF'd ....but to make my fade, I changed congregations, states, and circuits. No backlash so far.....of course, at this point, I have posted my real picture and first name on this board...so I no longer care if I am DFd.

  Snakes

  **** Setting up a bogus congo is as bad as a bogus reinstatement committee. Sorry.

  Vinny