Is the Nonbeliever at Fault fo Rejecting God?

by leavingwt 30 Replies latest jw friends

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  leavingwt

  Is the nonbeliever at fault for rejecting God?

  No, she is not at fault. Consider the following: 1. If one is adequately informed of the consequences of a decision, and willfully choosing to make that decision is clearly irrational, then it is irrational to willfully choose to make it.
  2. If one willfully chooses to make an irrational decision, then one's moral or reasoning faculties are defective.
  3. If one's moral or reasoning faculties are defective, then this defect was either the result of (a) choices that the agent herself made in the past or (b) external causes.
  4. If one's moral or reasoning faculties are defective due to external causes, then it cannot be one's fault that one's reasoning faculties are defective.
  5. If one's moral or reasoning faculties are defective due to choices that the agent herself has made in the past, then it cannot be one's fault that her reasoning faculties are defective.
  6. If it cannot be one's fault that one's moral or reasoning faculties are defective, then it cannot be one's fault for willfully making an irrational decision.
  7. Nonbelievers are adequately informed of the consequences of rejecting God, and willfully choosing to make that decision is clearly irrational. [ assumed only for the sake of argument ]
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  8. Therefore, nonbelievers who willfully choose to reject God are irrational in choosing to make this decision. (from 6, 1)
  9. Therefore, those nonbelievers' moral or reasoning faculties are defective. (from 7, 2)
  10. Therefore, it cannot be the nonbelievers' fault that their moral or reasoning faculties are defective. (from 8, 5, 4, and 3)
  11. Therefore, it cannot be the nonbelievers' fault for willfully choosing to reject God. (from 10, 8, and 6)
  
  Some would question (5). Some, I suspect, are inclined to think that if one's moral or reasoning faculties are defective due to choices that the agent herself has made in the past, then it can be her fault that her moral or reasoning faculties are defective. Not so: we first have to inquire why the agent made the choices she did. Were they rational choices or irrational choices? Was she aware of the fact that her past choices would result in her moral or reasoning faculties becoming defective? If she was aware of this consequence, then her past choices could not have been rational -- hence they were irrational. But if willfully choosing to make those choices was irrational, then her moral or reasoning faculties were already defective.
  
  At some point, after we have inquired into why the agent made the choices she did, we arrive at an external explanation. We thus arrive at conclusion (4): that if one's moral or reasoning faculties are defective due to external causes, then it cannot be one's fault that one's reasoning faculties are defective.

  http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2009/07/is-nonbeliever-at-fault-for-rejecting.html
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  flipper

  I feel I'm very rational- and I'm not a Christian ! I don't feel at fault about anything ! Lost my guilt complex years ago from being in the witnesses
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  mouthy

  No I dont think so. I can well understand folks rejecting God.
  So much heartache in the world ,so much hate, one wonders
  where this God of LOVE is.
  I choose to believe he exist's Only because of the created things
  I enjoy,flowers,trees, seas,etc:etc: but that is me. I do tell HIM
  constantly,I am having a hard time understanding WHY he allows it.
  But at the same time I also thank him often throughout the day
  because he seems to care for me.I have food in the fridge,roof over
  my head,I can see,hear, walk, feel, I truly dont deserve it with the
  mistakes I have made in my life ,yet innocent kids all over the world
  are dying, hungry,hurting,Yes I can understand it is a no fault of
  folks to reject HIM. ...You would be amazed at the things I attribute
  to the HAND of God towards me.
  But you might say to me "The devil looks after his own" meaning me
  But I say thanks to Jesus ,who Historians claim died for sinners,
  that I guess is why I benifit, I am one of the GREATEST!!!( sinners)
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  Elsewhere

  Those who reject the Flying Spaghetti Monster will feel the wrath of his noodly appendage.
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  AK - Jeff

  Reject is a strong verb for what I think.

  I find many rational reasons to believe that something greater than man has influenced the so-described 'creation' about us. I do not claim to know how all that happened. I do not believe that religion or it's ideologies accurately [if at all] explain this. I also do not hold that total disbelief in something grand and unexplainable is totally reasonable for me to accept.

  I do not expect I will know any of the answers before I die. I will still hold the questions as worthy of intrigue, some consternation, and occasional reflection.

  I find no logical reason to reject God. I find equal lack of logical reason to worship anything/anyone called God. I am simply unable to make absolute determination - therefore I must take a moderate stand of agnostism in the matter.

  That agnostism is open to change given proof, or my desire to examine such proof deeply enough to be absolutely convinced of either a total rejection or a total acceptance of a being called God. Like my native ancestors, I hold deep reverance for the natural wonders about me. I pull up short of giving any devotion to spiritual forces or beings that remain unproven to me.

  The beautiful thing about this position is that I have absolutely no need to judge anyone who rides the continuum from Atheist to Total Believer, or anywhere in between. In this respect, I know that I have moved beyond the faulty training I received in religion. For that I am thankful.

  Jeff
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  frankiespeakin

  Define Fault.

  Nonbeliever in which god?I'm a nonbeliever in all the ones I heard of and more, in my nonbeleif of them it makes no difference to them they are neither hurt in thier feeling nor truley insulted. So no need to plead for mercy from thier wrath all is neither forgiven or charged,, THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT.
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  Deputy Dog

  Romans 9:18

  So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
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  WTWizard

  God is a Master Scam Artist. He set up the Original Sin scam, fixing it so that, if people wanted to do what was best for themselves, they would have to disobey God and get punished for it. Upon which He set up a fake "savior" arrangement so people could have something to work on to waste their lives to "earn" salvation". Of course, in the end no one is "good enough".

  In the meantime, that Almighty Lowlife Scumbag squashes any attempts to break free from His tyranny. From what He did to keep Nimrod from setting up a republic with fully integrated honesty, to what He is now doing to set up a One World Totalitarian Government (which He intends to infest, transforming a mere totalitarian system into a full blown Second Dark Ages), to attempting to use me (forcibly, by cutting off every single opportunity to do better on me) to do the bidding for the Washtowel Babble and Crap Slaveholdery and let them do the dirty work. It all points to a God that does not want anyone to have peace, yet He wants everyone to believe that He loves them (yet another scam). He has backup plans for everything, and now that people are waking up, God is going to use absolute force to prevent them from breaking free.

  All of which causes the stagnation, corruption, and economic problems we see worldwide today. But, it doesn't matter if you are unemployed to that Almighty Lowlife Scumbag, since somewhere in the Unholy Bible God has written and documented an experience where someone in that same situation was blessed (it was documented so God wouldn't ever need you to receive such blessings). It matters not that you are sick and dying, since Hezekiah's life was "extended" (??) by 15 years and prominently documented (God actually stole 30 years and returned only 15). It matters not that you never get ahead in life, or that you are the object of disgrace for no reason--God wrote the book of Job so He would be able to get out of ever seeing you doing better. And so on.

  Almighty God is a master liar, cheat, thief, scam artist, and just about every other thing (bad thing) one can think of. He hates us, yet He orders us to believe that He loves us (based solely on some out of date, embellished, and/or totally fictitious account in some out of date, lie-filled book written to get out of seeing us prosper). And He wonders why people believe that He doesn't exist (which would be totally understandable, given the total lack of response to prayers and the disdain and contempt He has shown us, in the name of "love").
• 

  leavingwt

  Why Does God Give Up on Nonbelievers?

  "Christians will undoubtedly argue that God cannot interfere with the nonbeliever’s free will, despite how she chooses to exercise it. For if God were to not accept the nonbeliever’s irrational choice, he would be devaluing her humanity or intrinsic moral worth. I’d like to see some justification for this claim, but even supposing the Christian could provide a satisfactory answer, there lies a deeper problem: why would God wish to give up on the nonbeliever? According to Christians, the decision to reject God is indicative of a deep defect in the nonbeliever’s moral and rational faculties. So it is utterly incomprehensible why God would wish to give up on trying to correct this defect. If God thinks the nonbeliever is making the biggest mistake one can possibly make, then it is far more plausible to suppose he would do everything in his power to help her realize her error—reach out to her until she ‘gets it’, no matter how long it takes. Hence, the obvious answer to the question of when God should give up is ‘never.’ It is what a fully compassionate and loving being would do, and therefore what God would do, if he exists."

  http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2009/07/why-does-god-give-up-on-nonbelievers.html

  I must say that MOST of the Christians I've spoken with don't feel that God ever gives up on any of us. What do you think?
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  frankiespeakin

  At the same time I wounder what is meant by your term "give up on a person",,what is it that this giving up implies? god giving up on a convert or to his nonbelief in him?

  The question that needs to be ask is why would he care since he's got a universe to run? God has much more important things to do than be concerned about whether someone some where in this great big universe shares your particular belief in him,,he's got much bigger fish to fry. His being offended is a lie,,,don't beleive it,,, come on,, like he's got nothing better to do than worrying about whether or not you beleive in him,,, then I'd say our universe is in real trouble. God get on the ball for christ sake stop worrying about this egoic shit(joke).