elders, culpability, apples & oranges...

by dungbeetle 30 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  dungbeetle

  Sometimes it's funny when a thread gets off topic----and sometimes it isn't.

  A very good question has arisen.."are jehovah's Witness elders culpable for damage done by the Watchtower by virtue of their postition?"

  YES

  Somehow the topic changed to "don't blame elders for being 'in' the org, they may be mislead, that's all they know, they do some good, yada yada yada...

  LIKE HELL!!!!!

  Thee is a big world of difference between being 'in' the org for whatever reason, and being AN ELDER, A PUBLIC REPRESENTATIVE, AN ACTIVE CAMPAIGNER, A JUDICIAL COMMITTEE MEMBER...and I can go on and on here....of an organization that teaches death and destruction of most everyone on earth, and whose policies result in deaths of people probably every day.

  If a person must stay in, then stay in. God knows I've been through that. But stay an elder? Or a pioneer? And soak up all the status and power and glory that goes with the 'title' and 'positon'? Sit on judicial committees, go to special schools, and so on and so forth?

  Why should I not blame these individuals for harm done? What would the Watchtower be without elders and pioneers? How much damage could the Watchtower do anymore? How many more recruits could they make anywhere in the world without elders and pioneers? Our dear departed Watchtower might end up being a bunch of poor sisters with head coverings running the mikes and putting in their 15 minutes a month field service. If that.

  <deep recovering breath>

  Any 'elder' that thinks "oh, i'll just let this brother/sisteer be dragged in before a judicial committee, and go through this experience, I can do a lot of good." Eat shit and die, because that's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. I can guarantee you that most of us who have been through a judicial committee (and me more than once) can disagree vehemently with that one, and especially being judged by elders who have never been before a judicial committee their own selves.

  Do you hear all these people on this board, posting about 'the elders are coming, 'the elders have called' 'waiting for that knock on the door'waiting for the phone to ring'and so on. Doesn't that say anything to you? ANYTHING AT ALL?

  You care about somebody and want to help them, you go to them and say so, one or two of you. Jest plain folks, not elders/pioneers/judicial committee members.

  As for the active elders/bethel workers we have on the board here, I do appreciate everything they've done. But the truth be told, I wish for them the peace of mind and freedom that those who are 'out' have, and hope you find it soon. You'll have to leave to get it, tho. And it won't be handed to you like the Watchtower lyingly promises, you'd have to scratch and claw and scrounge for it like the rest of us plain folks.

  Having said that, have a great and happy and safe holiday season, 'in' the org or 'out' of it.

  BITE ME, WATCHTOWER!!!
• 

  Francois

  You make a very good point.

  The "Organization" IS the elders, MS, COs, and all the publishers, too. "We" are "them." Or at least we were when we were still in the Borg. And the people who are "in" and exercise the power are responsible for its exercise.

  The Nazis weren't made up of its symbols. The Nazis were the membership, even lowly membership.

  Who, after all, is the U.S. government? ALL the bureaucrats who enforce the laws passed by congress.

  Who are the JWs? ALL the membership. And those who exercise the power are responsible for that exercise and for the results of the exercise.

  The elders are responsible for the hurt and pain and abuse they allow, and even encourage and in many cases CAUSE.

  My two cents.

  Francois
• 

  ballistic

  I've always described my rage to be against the "machine" of the Watchtower. What makes it a machine is it's operating rules: self perpetuation through preaching, self protection through disfellowshipping and shunning and control through the regime of meetings, study etc.
  The people that make up the membership (as we did once) have no control OVER the machine. They are controlled BY it, and yet are inherantly part of it.
• 

  patio34

  Hi DB, Francoise, and Ballistic,

  I think you're all right. It's a matter percentages of shared culpability, as the law in the USA does with an auto accident, etc.

  Even as the Bible has a verse that 'teachers will have more responsibility.'

  IMO, all have responsibility and guilt. But the leaders have proportionately more guilt the higher they go.

  DB, that's an excellent way to drive your point home: 'the elders came to my house' or 'the elders want to see me.' It begins to sound like the Gestapo are coming to my house. (Shiver.)

  Good thread.

  Happy Sunday!
  pat
• 

  Frenchy

  ::: Thee is a big world of difference between being 'in' the org for whatever reason, and being AN ELDER, A PUBLIC REPRESENTATIVE, AN ACTIVE CAMPAIGNER, A JUDICIAL COMMITTEE MEMBER...:::

  Elders are not representatives of the WTBS. They are specifically instructed not to refer to themselves as such since they are not. As for being an active campaigner, all witnesses are exhorted to be active campaigners. Membership to the organization is based on being ‘active’ inasmuch as ‘inactive’ publishers are not counted. And as for being a ‘judicial committee member’ remember that the rank and file voluntarily become part of the JC process. Elders are not in the decision making process anymore than your average R&F witness.

  ::: Why should I not blame these individuals for harm done? :::

  Not all elders are the power hungry, glory grabbing, title seekers that you portray them to be. There is little glory to being an elder for one thing, except that it be in the mind of that particular elder. Congregation publishers do not necessarily love elders anymore than the general population loves police officers or hunters and fishermen are especially endeared to game wardens. The elders do not make policy. Their power rests in the perception that others have of them. They have no weapons or armies to compel others to bend to their will. Those who grovel in the shadow of their pseudo-authority are those who have relinquished their freedom willingly.

  Your next statement seems to indicate a state of confusion on your part.

  ::: As for the active elders/bethel workers we have on the board here, I do appreciate everything they've done. :::

  ??? After all that ranting and raving? Come on now.

  Why do the publishers shudder when the elders approach? Why don’t they just tell them off? Do you know that elders come from publishers? Why do the publishers stay? Fear? Do you suppose for one instance that elders don’t have fear also?

  You are attacking at the wrong end, my friend. There are many victims here. I know that you are angy. I am angry also. But let us not attack the victims...let's help them where we can.
• 

  JT

  I understand the point that many of you are trying to make about the Elders, Being a Elder myself at one time I think back to all the guys I know who were elders-

  Most were no more than company men trying to do what they believed was Ordained by god himself

  You see. I too was one of those elders who thought I could "stay in" and "DO Some Good", but after awhile you begin to realize that the "Machine" takes on a life of it's own

  Ray really descibed this process so well in his book as he described the Growth process of an organization

  What stands out to me the most is the GB memeber known as Ted Jaraz

  I recall many of his comments at morning worship - in fact many of us used to talk about the way he would Speak of "The Organization"

  It was as if it had a life of it's own, it was like he was under the jurisdiction of the Org himself

  and we used to say: " He make the rules" and yet to hear him speak of THE ORGANIZATIOn it was like it lived and breathe on it's own

  Ray really explain the concept behind ORGANIZATIONS and it was at that point I personally realized why myself and others felt the way we did

  as a jw and esp an elder it is pounded into your head over and over

  "NEVER SHAME THE ORG"- As one bro said to me after awhile the avg elder has been so conditioned that if a choice must be made between the sister who was abused and the good name of the org --the sister loses

  and it doesn't matter who it is- IF A CHOICE MUST BE MADE BETWEEN THE ORG AND THE PERSON - be it CO, Elder, DO. BRanch overseer, bethelite or GB --the Org will always WIN.

  I personally find that many who feel "Let's hold those damn elders feet to the fire" many times have never served as an Elder-

  AS they say "Sh!t" runs down hill---

  my old roommate is a CO and DO instructor at bethel

  and the way they BEAT THE HE!! out of the CO's and DO's for low hours, atttendance, appointements and pioneers in thier district and circuits is unreal

  Then the CO comes and beats the He!! out of the Elders and what most of what many of you see is the Beating that you as a local publisher gets from the Elders

  And just like the avg pub doesnt' say:

  "THE HE!! WITH YOU GUYS TREATING ME LIKE THIS, I'm getting out"

  The same with the elders, co , do , bethelites, etc--

  No --instead the training/indoctrination that the avg jw has recieved over the years tells them this is a "Provision from JAH and I needed this Firm Hand"

  - and that is why the guilt and worthless are Hallmarks of JW and any other high control groups-

  I have seen COs literaly spit as it were in the face of an elder before others and what is the jw view- BE HUMBLE AND TAKE IT

  thruout all levels of the org the constant THIS IS FROM JAH mindset rules and controls

  I have seen over and over the bad results that come when a "Belief System" be it WT, Taliban, etc-- that teaches it's followers that this is the "Will of the Lord"

  Yes whether you believe it or not it is true Elders are as much a victim of the WT system as anyone else- in act perhaps worst since they are told god says it's ok to beat the lazy pub.

  do any of you think that when the Older men of the city were throwing rocks at some 36 yrs old gal who got involved with some guy - since her hubby treated her like dirt thought that they were doing anything wrong.

  Persaonlly this is the problem i have with "Belief Systems"

  I can't think of anything more dangerous than to convince a man or group of folks that thier Actions are Approved by god himself-

  you got some serious potential problems on your hand there- SMILE

  One of the greatest tools and technique that the wt has used over the years is being able to isolate themsleves from blame- (YOU KNOW BLAME THE THE PUBLISHERS FOR COMING UP WITH THESE EXPECTATION)

  The avg jw can't get their anger higher than the local elders and maybe, maybe the CO. You can find almost any pub who will dog the local elders, but show me a Pub who will go to the "Man behind the Curtain"

  I find that most elders are not even qualified according to wt own rules- they have high hours and are friends with the current body and they get selected and are told over and over God appointed you

  If you tell someone anything long enough and hard enough I'm sure most would indeed start to believe it.

  :"ASk any woman= "Why does the silliest man thinks he is Head of the house? They have been tell us men that trash for years- that's why"

  I have never met an elder who was still in the org who didn't think or believe that "GOD" appointed him- if he didn't feel that way he is soon to be out - like many of us-

  In fact to get an elder to explain how it works is almost funny to watch-

  Q--Were you appointed by HS like david-

  A--Well not exactly-

  Q--Well is it the same HS that appointed David----

  A- Yes it is, but it ain't exactly the same

  and the conversation would go on and on just like that

  I personally think to focus on Elders is very short sighted- there are only about 2 dozen Males in the org who are really movers and shakers the key right hand men of the org- the rest of us were merely "YES MEN" following what we thought were Orders From God.

  how sad

  when in fact most of us now know all any of us were doing was working for an American Corp that publishes useless books

  just my 2.

  james
• 

  JT

  Frenchy

  I agree with you 100%

  it is the SYSTEM that is the problem

  you could have 3 elders all with 7th grade educations and they call a bro into the back who has a PHD and what will this man do-

  Hwe will accept being spit on by a group of guys who have a combined education of less than he does with his degree-

  now one must ask why would an educated man submit himself to MO\ Larry and Curly-- It is his belief in the system.

  those who ""SIT ON TOP"" elders, co ,do are only as powerful as the rank and file makes them-

  for those who look closely they will see that there are very few if any winners in a high control group- look at Jim Jones and David Keresh-

  did these guys let others kill themselves and today they are in some French Villa chillin--- nope thier belief system kill not only thier followers but them too-

  yes whenever a man who wipes his A$$ with Charmin toilet paper tells you that HE speaks for God --it's time to get to Steppin

  just my 2
• 

  Frenchy

  :::The avg jw can't get their anger higher than the local elders and maybe, maybe the CO. You can find almost any pub who will dog the local elders, but show me a Pub who will go to the "Man behind the Curtain"::: -JT

  :::(speaking of the frame of mind of those under rule) That those are in authority who ought to be in authority, and that they know what they are doing appears to them a truth of which there can be no doubt. If they could admit the possibility of mistake or error, it would only be in functionaries of a lower grade; the highest authority on which all the rest depends seems to them immaculate beyond suspicion.::: Tolstoy

  Very true.
• 

  larc

  I was raised a Jehovah's Witness. As such, I was a true believer. When I pioneered, I did so because I thought it was the right thing to do, not because I was seeking power or status. I should think that is true of most who pioneered. I would also have to assume that most who post here, were JWs because they thought it was the truth, it was God's organization. Within that mindset, I would further assume that most who became elders considered it to be the right thing to do. I think that same principle applies all the way to the top. As Ray Franz wrote in his book, "We became followers of followers." It is natural to lash out in anger and try to find someone to blame. The fact is, the system itself is to blame, not any particular individual or group within the organization.

  I guess I can analyze it this way, because I have been out for a long time, and the anger is gone.
• 

  Yadirf

  Dungbeetle

  an organization that teaches death ... of most everyone on earth -- Dungbeetle.

  "Put your sharp sickle in and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, because its grapes have become ripe." And the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and he hurled it into the great winepress of the anger of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and BLOOD CAME OUT OF THE WINEPRESS AS HIGH UP AS THE BRIDLES OF THE HORSES, FOR A DISTANCE OF A THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED FURLONGS. -- Revelation 14: 18-20.

  But the rest were killed off with the long sword of the one seated on the horse, which proceeded out of his mouth. AND ALL THE BIRDS WERE FILLED FROM THE FLESHY PARTS OF THEM. -- Revelation 19:21.

  Now what was it that you were saying? Oh yeah, Jehovah's Witnesses are "an organization that teaches death ... of most everyone on earth." Yep, but SO DOES THE BIBLE! Sorta interesting, don't cha think, that what THEY teach is what the Bible itself teaches. And just what else would you expect to hear, Dungbeatle? ... That the WTS would water down the Bible's message just for you, so as to prevent making YOU unhappy? Look to Christendom, Dungbeetle, if you're seeking a good ear tickling ... something to make you feel at ease.

  Friday

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.