elders, culpability, apples & oranges...

by dungbeetle 30 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  seven006

  Friday,

  You make a good point. Too bad you can't grasp the full concept of what you just stated.

  Dave
• 

  ElijahTheThird

  If I may take this thread a bit further on the topic.

  What of the culpability of the Anointed? Ever wonder just how many have stayed in as to how many have spoken out and got the boot? Or left of their own accord?
• 

  Yadirf

  Dave

  1) http://www.sumagroup.com
  2) http://www.sumagroup.com/ttd
  3) http://www.sumagroup.com/dave
  4) http://www.sumagroup.com/3d

  You built some nice sites.

  You make a good point. Too bad you can't grasp the full concept of what you just stated.

  Please tell me what it is that you think I don't fully grasp, Dave.

  Friday

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
• 

  NeonMadman

  Yadirf says:

  Now what was it that you were saying? Oh yeah, Jehovah's Witnesses are "an organization that teaches death ... of most everyone on earth." Yep, but SO DOES THE BIBLE! Sorta interesting, don't cha think, that what THEY teach is what the Bible itself teaches.

  Of course, your assertion depends upon the assumption that the Watchtower interpretation of Revelation 14:18-20 and 19:21 is the correct one. In fact, neither of these scriptures says that God will destroy the majority of those on Earth. Revelation 19:21 is specifically describing the armies of the beast engaged in directly fighting against Christ; a specific event at a specific time. Only those so engaged are spoken of as being destroyed, and it is only Watchtower dogma that enlarges that to the destruction of most of those on earth.

  And Revelation 14:18-20 is worded rather vaguely, and the context is clearly symbolic. I wouldn't try to offer an interpretation, except to say that, while a great amount of bloodshed is described, there is nothing indicating that the bloodshed will be global or will involve the destruction of the majority of mankind.

  Again, Friday, you're on here spouting Watchtower dogma and trying to make the scriptures say what they do not say. I am still waiting for scriptural justification for your dogmatic statements on two other threads: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17451&site=3 and http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17688&site=3

  The fact that you simply spout dogma and refuse to respond when challenged really destroys your credibility, at least with me, and I suspect, with a lot of other posters here. It's too bad, really.

  Tom
  "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan
• 

  Budda Belly

  Yardirf,

  As this boards chief apostate, I must remind
  you to get off your ass and do some
  X-mas shopping before the stores close.
  Merry X-mas big guy!!
• 

  teejay

  Friday,

  You make a good point. Too bad you can't grasp the full concept of what you just stated. -- Dave

  Funny. Friday was more profound than he intended. I think.

  p.s. Good points, JT and larc although I understand dungbeetle's point. It's a good one.
• 

  seven006

  Friday,

  Your position on this board is blatantly obvious and in many cases you present them in the best logic the JW teachings can allow. What I have seen you and others like you do time and time again is use the logic that points out the inconsistencies of the basic Christian belief in an attempt to discredit them and make the JW version appear correct. In the big picture of things the JW's are no different then the Christians they try to show as having the wrong way of thinking.

  Instead of going into a long drawn out scripture quoting post that most people scroll through as quickly as possible to get to the next posters punch line I will simply state my personal measuring rod in trying to accept the existence of god.

  My system is simple:

  I am an imperfect specimen of human kind. I am a good father and love my three sons with every essence of love that a human can feel and understand. I look at myself to try and understand the possibilities of a god by measuring myself against that possibility and the many explanations of him.

  I look at the description of what a belief system uses to describe their god then I compare it to myself and the love I have for my sons. I would NEVER give my sons the ultimate to love me or die. I would never give tell my sons to praise me and give thanks to me every day for giving them life. I would never play games with my sons to trick them or tempt them into doing something I considered wrong. I would never ask my sons to kill someone to defend my honor. I would never ask my sons to kill their own son to prove their love for me. I would never do harm to my sons if they disagree with me.

  I make my expectations of my sons clear and direct without trying to have them search for my meaning like a game of hide and seek. I love my sons no matter what they may do wrong. I will NEVER treat my sons as if they are dead simply because they do not agree with me. I will never turn my back on my sons for any reason. I do not get jealous if my sons love their mother (my ex-wife) or their own girlfriends on an equal or higher level than they love me. I teach my son that women are our equals and not our servants to be seen and not heard. I teach them that not all people are alike and they should try to understand the differences as opposed to distancing themselves from them.

  I teach my sons that jealousy is a selfish emotion that usually is based on the lack of trust and misunderstandings. I teach my sons that just because a persons parents do wrong things doesn't mean their children have to suffer the consequences of their parents actions. I teach my sons that true love does not have conditions based on selfish insecurities. I teach my sons to look at both sides of an argument and listen to both explanations while not taking one sides version as the absolute truth. I teach my sons to try to understand why people do the things they do by looking at more then their actions but what might have caused those actions. I teach my sons that it is more important to try to understand someone than to judge them by what you do not understand. I teach my sons to reason by logic and understanding not a predetermined belief or obedience by threat. I teach them to be open minded about all thoughts and concepts and use logic and reasoning to make a decision of what to believe.

  As I look at my way of showing love and understanding I compare my way and the way a god is explained. If I see selfishness, jealousy, anger, vengeance, manipulation, racism, genocide, childish games, teachings of killing, race supremacy, biological difference profiling, gender discrimination, constant contradiction of thought and actions and an over all love me or die concept, I will not accept that god or the explanation that their god is the real god. I do not base all my thoughts and make all decisions based on those thoughts by the words of one single person, book or concept.

  If a god is supposed to be more understanding and loving than an imperfect specimen of human kind then why am I more understand and loving than the description I have read of the god in the bible. I am not god and if there is a god he has to be a lot better to his sons than I am to mine. I just don't see it.

  Your acceptance and justification of the concept of a controlling, judgmental, jealous god of armies is what I was referring to. Many religions are of the consensus that a god has to have the ability to hurt and destroy before he can bee seen as all mighty and powerful. That concept my friend is what causes the hurt and destruction of this planet. If you defend it, you emulate it. If you accept it as fact but feel you fall short of its expectations you give up on life and can do even more injurious things to yourself and others than those who believe and follow.

  The simple childish comment that my "dad can beat up your dad" is the basic concept of religion. It is not love, it is simply a tool to control others based on manipulation of others insecurities. Just because the bible is filled with one concept of "love your neighbor" prove nothing about it's teaching of love. The obey me or die or god of armies or vengeance is mine sayith the lord negates even the most beautiful explanation it tries to pass off as real love. To love someone because of there perceived physical or spiritual prowess in the ability to protect by the way of violence and destruction is in my opinion a weak stance and an easy way out. To love and follow because of understanding and respect by ones loving actions and wisdom and have strength of understanding and accepting is much more powerful. Brains wins out over brawn every time.

  That is what I meant by you not grasping full the concept of what you speak.

  Take care,

  Dave
• 

  TR

  Yadirf,

  It's difficult for me to view you as a loyal JW. I mean, you profess to not have been to meetings in years, yet you defend the WTS down to the last phony belief. I find it hypocritical that you defend the WTS yet you're not a functioning participant. I assume that you enjoy not having to involve yourself in the day to day activities of a JW. You enjoy your freedom just like we X's do. What are you waiting for man? Shit or get off the pot! Are you clinging to the hope that you'll get in under the wire when 'geddon arrives?

  I've stated these points before, Yadirf, but I do not recall a reply from you.

  TR

  I'm gonna make mince meat outta that Osama!
• 

  TR

  Although I believe that the elders and other higher ups believe that they are helping to do god's will, they are still culpable when it comes to hurting people. They actively participate in the altering of people's lives. The problem is, they may not fully realize it until they start to doubt the system.

  TR

  I'm gonna make mince meat outta that Osama!
• 

  bigboi

  Like it or not Elders are accountable.
  
  True, they may be victims of this abuse and deception like any other witness. However, elders are privy to a lot more info than the average rank and file. They wield more influence and power over the average jw than any other clergy in any other religion. A lot of the harsh policies that were implemented probably got their start from immature, overly righteous elders who voiced their complaints and bodies of elders who were too intimidated to silence them effectively.

  ONE....

  bigboi

  "it's like the one thing we all have in common is that we
  got played by a cult and a bunch of old men and no matter what it will
  always be a part of us no matter how much we distance ourselves from it"~ Ghostquote