elders, culpability, apples & oranges...

by dungbeetle 30 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Hi Bigboi,

  Like it or not Elders are accountable.

  Given the validity of this argument, who would they be accountable to? What reparations would you expect those who are ‘culpable’ to make?

  Every active JW evangelized, often using deceitful skills learned from others with a zealous relish. With these skills we grafted our message into the mind and hearts of our hapless victims. Again given the validity of your argument this means that every publisher, elder, CO, DO to some degree or the other is culpable.

  How would we measure the degree of culpability? By the number of people we infected with our message, the number of JC’s we sat on? The amount of pain we caused? I have known elders who are so brutal I am convinced they would be criminals outside of the WTS. I have also met many gentle, kind and sincere elders who actively worked to ease pain and not cause it. I note the same findings with publishers, CO’s, DO’s, Missionaries, even GB members.

  Someone earlier on this thread noted that elders were culpable, not the system, because they are individuals. In this case, should not their judgment be made as individuals?

  The issues are not as simple as our emotions might like them to be. I cannot see how a person can ever free themselves of the threads of WTS thinking until we accept that there are as many good and bad people within the WTS as within any other religious system. Punishing the people, by deed or word does not unravel the system, but imho misses the real target.

  The parallel with Nazism was made earlier but it has to be acknowledged that at Nuremberg only the leaders and those who were directly responsible for murder were tried. The rank and file Nazi, or soldier were not. This amounted to several thousand people out of several millions..

  The line needs to be drawn in the correct place lest we punish the misled instead of the malevolent. Several dozen people are responsible for pulling the strings that work the WT puppet and the system hangs precariously on these life-lines.

  How to snip their strings is another problem altogether.

  Best regards -- HS
• 

  Englishman

  Dungbeetle,

  I am with you all the way on this one!

  Only by making each individual dub aware that what they do, IS their own choice will stop them from associating with the Brooklyn fraternity.

  Know what I say when a dub apologises because he can't speak to me?

  I say "OK, but be in no doubt that this is YOUR choice that YOU are making, this is what YOU want, this is YOU acting out th WT's edicts".

  Try it sometime, its quite astonishing how they react.

  Englishman

  Bring on the dancing girls!
• 

  bigboi

  The issues are not as simple as our emotions might like them to be.

  I agree. However the reason I feel elders are accountable as a class is becasue they are the real power brokers in the org. They excercise tremendous power over jws and a lot of times they choose for the sale of conformity or ambition to undermine the well-being of the rank and file. There are indeed countless stories of wrong doing by members of the jw religion at all levels I'm certain. In my opinion the most far reaching and damging of these are committed by elders who occupy the posititon that has a virtual monopoly on all issues that matter in a jw's life.

  . I cannot see how a person can ever free themselves of the threads of WTS thinking until we accept that there are as many good and bad people within the WTS as within any other religious system.

  I agree with this satement and I know the point you bring out is true. I'm not saying that the elders are the sole reason why the WTS is the way it is. It's the way it is because it's founded on a lie and a gross misrepresentation of Christianity. However being an elder puts one in a special position in the world of jw's. One cannot occupy that position, have that type of insight into the inner workings of this org and at the same time not be culpable.

  ONE....

  bigboi

  "it's like the one thing we all have in common is that we
  got played by a cult and a bunch of old men and no matter what it will
  always be a part of us no matter how much we distance ourselves from it"~ Ghostquote
• 

  JT

  Bigbio says:

  I feel elders are accountable as a class is becasue they are the real power brokers in the org.
  ------------------

  I hate to pop your bubble , but the elders are the lowest on the power totem pole-

  sorry

  Elders are not the "Power Brokers" that you believe

  james
• 

  Frenchy

  Please make a careful note of JT's reply. He's quite correct.

  Bigboi said:
  ::: However the reason I feel elders are accountable as a class is becasue they are the real power brokers in the org. …They excercise tremendous power over jws and a lot of times they choose for the sale of conformity or ambition to undermine the well-being of the rank and file. There are indeed countless stories of wrong doing by members of the jw religion at all levels I'm certain. In my opinion the most far reaching and damging of these are committed by elders who occupy the posititon that has a virtual monopoly on all issues that matter in a jw's life.:::

  Elders are not power brokers. Puppets would be a much more accurate term. They do not make policy or have the least bit of influence in the decisions made in Brooklyn. The power they wield over the R&F is the power the R&F willingly allow them. As for their conformity, it is no greater than that of the R&F. I’ve recounted this story here already but I think it bears on what you say. I’ll be as brief as I can.

  Sometime back a df’d person was killed and I was asked by his JW mother to do the funeral. I agreed. The first person to find out about this was the mother’s niece who promptly called another elder and began raising a stink about how wrong it would be for me to do that funeral. Because of the insistence of the R&F publisher to conform to policy I was unable to do that funeral.

  The Society has the monopoly on all issues, not the elders. The publishers will turn in an elder who steps out of bounds to help someone just as fast as a C.O. or another elder will. That is a fact. I have experienced this personally more than once.

  Have you ever served as an elder? Are you speaking from first hand experience? May I suggest stepping back some and looking at this more closely?

  ::: One cannot occupy that position, have that type of insight into the inner workings of this org and at the same time not be culpable.::: --bigboi

  You seem to be under the delusion (no offense meant) that elders are privy to the ‘inner workings’ of the organization. They are no more so than your average publisher. If you have ever been to a ks school you will know that the bulk of the drivel that’s ladled out is from WT publications which are at the disposal of the R&F. Everything else is merely procedure. What does an elder know that a publisher doesn’t? Can someone please tell me?
• 

  hillary_step

  Elders are the 'soft targets' that the WTS sets up to focus its failures away from itself and into a more tangible form that the publishers can then direct their ire to.

  Elders are allowed very, very little personal input into overseeing their congregations, less so today than at any time in the history of the WTS. They are dictated to by the WTS over almost every decision required of them, and this is no exaggeration.

  When things go right, the WTS takes the credit, when things go wrong the WTS blames its elders. It is actually a very cunning system which has many JW's attacking their elders for putting into practice edicts dictated to them by Brooklyn. If they refuse to follow direction they are removed and become outcasts drifting in a very strange sea.

  A perfect example of this was the comment made by Brown when discussing the failures of the WTS toward child abuse with the press. The WTS took no blame at all, but placed the mantle of blame firmly of 'some elders who screw up'.

  When Ray Franz encouraged the GB to return to the 'elder' arrangement in the congregations in 1972, previously abandoned in the 40's, I am quite sure he did not realize the monster he was giving life to.

  Best regards -- HS
• 

  bigboi

  I hate to pop your bubble , but the elders are the lowest on the power totem pole-

  You have to be kidding, right? CO's. DO's. and ZO's are all elders. It's the main office used by the org to represent it. I don't subscribe to the notion that all elders, even those at the local level, are simple yes-men that just do what they're told. Nah, a lot of those boys have been and are responsible for a lot of the policies put in effect and the way it's applied to the local congregation.

  ONE.....

  bigboi

  "it's like the one thing we all have in common is that we
  got played by a cult and a bunch of old men and no matter what it will
  always be a part of us no matter how much we distance ourselves from it"~ Ghostquote
• 

  larc

  bigboi,

  I think there is merit to what you say, but I think it is the system that does the damage. A good system would minimize the harm that elders could do and mazimize the good. There are several reasons why I think the system is a bad one.

  1. The elders are poorly trained. I have read here that their training sessions are little more that a rehash of old magazines. No special sessions are given on counseling methods, taught by professionals in that area. No training is given regarding the use of evidence as taught by a judge in the legal system.

  2. Most elders are poorly educated. The system, as you know, discourages education. So, most well meaning elders have no knowledge of mental illness, marriage counseling, etc. If this condition existed in the rest of society, there would be a flurry of malpractice law suits, but of course, this will not happen in the closed world of the WT.

  3. There are little or nothing in the way of checks and balances. An appeal of a committee decision does not go to a higher level group with more experience, wisdom, and judgement. It goes, instead to another like minded group of elders, who are equally unprepared to make mature judgements.

  JT,

  You are right, of course, about the lack of power that the elders have. I think bigboi is referring to the power they have at the local level. In this sense, the elders are similiar to factory supervisors. The supervisor has little power in the company, but they have enormous power over the workers, and most workers come to judge the company by how they are treated by their supervisor.
• 

  hillary_step

  Frenchy,

  Our posts crossed - please excuse my repetition of your points.

  HS
• 

  IslandWoman

  "Know what I say when a dub apologises because he can't speak to me?

  I say 'OK, but be in no doubt that this is YOUR choice that YOU are making, this is what YOU want, this is YOU acting out th WT's edicts'."

  Englishman,

  Are you sure they have a choice?

  That's like telling a meter reader who apologizes as they start to write out a parking ticket: OK, but be in no doubt that this is YOUR choice that YOU are making, this is what YOU want, this is YOU acting out the GOVERNMENT'S edicts!

  The sincere JW is only trying to obey what they consider is their governmental authority. Remember what is shoved down their throat all the time: to obey is better than a sacrifice! These people obey out of fear sometimes and respect for God other times.

  There sure are some mean and cruel publishers and elders in the Tower, but IMO there are some sincere and well meaning publishers and elders there also.

  It's makes no sense to clump people into a "one size fits all" bag.

  IW